Choices in the Garden of Eden

[Nihilist Virus]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil seems to be the thing which has given mankind the distinction between good and evil. So if Adam and Eve were unaware of good and evil, or at least the significance of such things, then why did God punishment them for their disobedience? Please explain how this story makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, and you believe it is a literal story, then where do you go from there?

Atheists: please allow the premise that the story of the garden is literal history and not a myth.

Christians: if you don't believe that the story of the garden is literal, then this thread may not be for you.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi NV, Christians believe that our progenitors were given free will by God and were equally capable of choosing to do good or evil (IOW, they could freely choose to obey or disobey their Maker). God gave Adam a single command to obey and told him what would happen if he chose not to. He chose poorly, and what God told him would happen as a result, did.

Just because our first parents chose to obey God for a time, doesn't mean that there would not be consequences if/when they chose to disobey Him (just like He said there would be).

I hope that helps!

Yours and His,
David

 

[cloudyday2]

The way I understood the story is that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was Adam's expression of his desire to decide for himself what is good and evil instead of obeying God. In other words it is Adam's desire to make his own judgments about good and evil.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hi NV, Christians believe that our progenitors were given free will by God and were equally capable of choosing to do good or evil (IOW, they could freely choose to obey or disobey their Maker).

They were capable of choosing to do good or evil only after eating of the tree. Please re-read.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The way I understood the story is that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was Adam's expression of his desire to decide for himself what is good and evil instead of obeying God. In other words it is Adam's desire to make his own judgments about good and evil.

So if you are saying he was unable to decide for himself whether to do good or evil prior to eating of the tree, then why was he punished?

 

[cloudyday2]

So if you are saying he was unable to decide for himself whether to do good or evil prior to eating of the tree, then why was he punished?

Leaving the garden was a consequence - not a punishment. Everything was perfect in the garden, because Adam and everything in the garden was obeying God. Adam in his pride decided that he could be his own God and make his own rules to achieve good and avoid evil. The misery of human existence is all a consequence of humanity's desire to be the lawgiver instead of leaving that role to God. The redemption of Jesus comes when humans admit failure and return home to God like the prodigal son. That is one way I imagined the story when I used to believe in Christianity.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Leaving the garden was a consequence - not a punishment. Everything was perfect in the garden, because Adam and everything in the garden was obeying God. Adam in his pride decided that he could be his own God and make his own rules to achieve good and avoid evil. The misery of human existence is all a consequence of humanity's desire to be the lawgiver instead of leaving that role to God. The redemption of Jesus comes when humans admit failure and return home to God like the prodigal son. That is one way I imagined the story when I used to believe in Christianity.

Toiling the soil... pain in childbirth... not a punishment?

 

[St_Worm2]

They were capable of choosing to do good or evil only after eating of the tree. Please re-read.

Hi NV, you know, that's exactly what I used to think, but if Adam/Eve were only capable of disobeying God "after" they ate the fruit, then they would have never disobeyed Him, right They didn't become sinners because of what they ate (as if the juice or the meat of the fruit was like some kind of spiritual poison to them), they became sinners when they chose to do what God specifically told them not to do ..

As for what Genesis says:

"The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” ~Gen 2:16-17​

Why would God bother commanding Adam not to do something if He knew he couldn't do it to begin with The answer is, because He knew Adam already possessed, "free will", the God-given ability to choose to obey or to disobey Him, to choose good or to choose evil, to choose right or to choose wrong. Again, it was his disobedience, his doing what God told him not to do, that got him (and us) in so much trouble.

Yours and His,
David

 

[cloudyday2]

Toiling the soil... pain in childbirth... not a punishment?

Toiling the soil is obviously a consequence of leaving the Garden of Eden. How else were Adam and Eve supposed to avoid starvation after leaving utopia?

Pain in childbirth is a bit trickier to rationalize. Maybe the food in the Garden of Eden contained birth control hormones to maintain a stable population? Or maybe Adam and Eve were so happy that sex was not particularly interesting. Why bother with physical sex when you can hold hands and walk through the perfect green grass of paradise?

 

[bling]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil seems to be the thing which has given mankind the distinction between good and evil. So if Adam and Eve were unaware of good and evil, or at least the significance of such things, then why did God punishment them for their disobedience? Please explain how this story makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, and you believe it is a literal story, then where do you go from there?

Atheists: please allow the premise that the story of the garden is literal history and not a myth.

Christians: if you don't believe that the story of the garden is literal, then this thread may not be for you.

There is a ton of information we can all learn from the garden story if we believe Adam and Eve were the first literal people or not.

We not only learn, but Adam and Eve learned some things also.

One of the things we learn is the answer to one of our first real questions in life; “How could an all Loving God allow this tragedy to happen” (you can fill in your own tragedy)?

Adam and Eve were made by God’s standard “very good”, but that is not perfect, since God cannot make beings that have always existed (like Christ).

The Garden situation shows us where God would Love for us all to be, so you should have support for the existence heaven. The Garden Scenario has only one way to be disobedient and in need of forgiveness. Adam and Eve did not know good and evil (which they did not need at the time), but would have been programmed with the concept of right and wrong (it is wrong to play in the street, but it is not evil). Adam and Eve had no need that was not met, no needy people to help, no hurting, no death, and a hobby (Gardening without weeds).

The problem is not with their sinning, but with the fact they did not fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning.

We can all realize the Garden scenario is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

There is a ton of information we can all learn from the garden story if we believe Adam and Eve were the first literal people or not.

We not only learn, but Adam and Eve learned some things also.

One of the things we learn is the answer to one of our first real questions in life; “How could an all Loving God allow this tragedy to happen” (you can fill in your own tragedy)?

Adam and Eve were made by God’s standard “very good”, but that is not perfect, since God cannot make beings that have always existed (like Christ).

Off topic.

The Garden situation shows us where God would Love for us all to be, so you should have support for the existence heaven. The Garden Scenario has only one way to be disobedient and in need of forgiveness. Adam and Eve did not know good and evil (which they did not need at the time), but would have been programmed with the concept of right and wrong (it is wrong to play in the street, but it is not evil). Adam and Eve had no need that was not met, no needy people to help, no hurting, no death, and a hobby (Gardening without weeds).

If there is no hurting, no death, then you need a different analogy. You are saying that playing in the street is not evil but is wrong (you still actually need to clarify this), but this is a nonsensical analogy to a world with no hurting and no death.

The problem is not with their sinning, but with the fact they did not fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning.

What?

We can all realize the Garden scenario is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

You are saying God put them in a lousy situation?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hi NV, you know, that's exactly what I used to think, but if Adam/Eve were only capable of disobeying God "after" they ate the fruit, then they would have never disobeyed Him, right

Incorrect. There was nothing to physically stop them from eating the fruit, so to say they never would have disobeyed him is wrong. As long as they have the free will to disobey, they will eventually choose to do so. And as long as they don't understand that it's wrong to do so, they are not responsible for their actions... yet God held them accountible.

They didn't become sinners because of what they ate (as if the juice or the meat of the fruit was like some kind of spiritual poison to them), they became sinners when they chose to do what God specifically told them not to do ..

But they didn't know it was wrong to disobey. Get it now?

As for what Genesis says:

"The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” ~Gen 2:16-17​

Why would God bother commanding Adam not to do something if He knew he couldn't do it to begin with

Again, there was no physical force field preventing Adam from eating the fruit, so what you are saying is nonsensical. Also, couldn't w also ask why God commanded Adam not to do something when God knew the future and knew that Adam would do it?

The answer is, because He knew Adam already possessed, "free will", the God-given ability to choose to obey or to disobey Him, to choose good or to choose evil, to choose right or to choose wrong.

You are not paying attention. Adam had the capacity to choose good or evil, but did not understand what they were.

Again, it was his disobedience, his doing what God told him not to do, that got him (and us) in so much trouble.

Yours and His,
David

But Adam did not know that disobedience was wrong, so why did he get in trouble?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

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[Alla27]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil seems to be the thing which has given mankind the distinction between good and evil. So if Adam and Eve were unaware of good and evil, or at least the significance of such things, then why did God punishment them for their disobedience? Please explain how this story makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, and you believe it is a literal story, then where do you go from there?

Atheists: please allow the premise that the story of the garden is literal history and not a myth.

Christians: if you don't believe that the story of the garden is literal, then this thread may not be for you.

I like this OP. Great questions.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Where do you get the idea there was no death?

I was responding to someone else. Hence the "if."

 

[Tawhano]

They were capable of choosing to do good or evil only after eating of the tree. Please re-read.

Can you provide the verse that you believe says they were only able to make a choice after eating from the tree? I cannot find it.

 

[bling]

Off topic.

Not really, since you asked: “…then why did God punishment them for their disobedience?”

“Punishment” most of the time in scripture could better be translated “disciplining” and Adam and Eve were being justly/fairly disciplined by God for their transgression.

If there is no hurting, no death, then you need a different analogy. You are saying that playing in the street is not evil but is wrong (you still actually need to clarify this), but this is a nonsensical analogy to a world with no hurting and no death.

Prior to Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden tree there were: no hurting people, death, limited resources, or even evil they could/would do.

There was a way for Adam and Eve to be “disobedient” or “do wrong” against their parent, but it cannot be done as the result of an evil motivation and thus be evil. A child that plays in the street is not doing it to hurt his/her parents (evil motivation), but to play with friends.

What?

You heard right: “Sin is not the problem” (we all sin, but that does not make us failures). We are only a failure if we do not humbly accept God’s forgiveness for our sins.

You are saying God put them in a lousy situation?

Yes! But they along with all of us needed to see or experience this paradise situation and see that we would not (and did not) fulfill our earthly objective in that situation. Look back we can reason why it was Lousy. People that do not learn from the Garden scenario ask the question without an answer: “How could a Loving God allow this (tragedy) to happen?”

 

[bling]

Adam and Eve became SINNERS. God prevented SINNERS to live FOREVER? punishment? or blessing?

Is "death" in and of itself "bad"?

 

[St_Worm2]

Incorrect. There was nothing to physically stop them from eating the fruit, so to say they never would have disobeyed him is wrong. As long as they have the free will to disobey, they will eventually choose to do so. And as long as they don't understand that it's wrong to do so, they are not responsible for their actions... yet God held them accountible.

But they didn't know it was wrong to disobey. Get it now?

Again, there was no physical force field preventing Adam from eating the fruit, so what you are saying is nonsensical. Also, couldn't w also ask why God commanded Adam not to do something when God knew the future and knew that Adam would do it?

You are not paying attention. Adam had the capacity to choose good or evil, but did not understand what they were.

But Adam did not know that disobedience was wrong, so why did he get in trouble?

Hi NV, of course Adam knew that doing what God specifically told him not to do was wrong, and God told him what the consequences would be to boot (Genesis 2:15-17). When God caught our first parents red-handed, they immediately tried to blame it on someone else (Adam blamed Eve .. Genesis 3:12 and Eve blamed the snake .. Genesis 3:13). They became the first to say, "It wasn't me" They absolutely knew that disobeying God was wrong.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - sorry for the somewhat slow replies. I'm out-of-town until Tuesday and it looks like I will continue to have little time post until I'm back home.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Can you provide the verse that you believe says they were only able to make a choice after eating from the tree? I cannot find it.

It's called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Adam ate of it his eyes were opened. Until he did that he had no knowledge of good or evil, let alone understanding of good or evil. Yet he was punished. Why?