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Choice and discrimination

R

rebelEnigma

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Even if homosexuality is a conscious choice one makes (and is irreversible from that point on), does that mean that they deserve the rotten treatment they receive from some people? and the discrimination from government?

They don't deserve rotten treatment, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to marry. Government should not be involved in this anyway. And if gays want to get married, they need to take it up with churches that would allow gay-marriage, as marriage is a religious institution, not a state one.
 
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Mr. QWERTY

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rebelEnigma said:
They don't deserve rotten treatment, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to marry. Government should not be involved in this anyway. And if gays want to get married, they need to take it up with churches that would allow gay-marriage, as marriage is a religious institution, not a state one.

No, you are incorrect. Marriage is a state institution and not a religious one.

For example, if you get married, you gain legal rights of inheritence. This is state, not religious.
If you get married, you have tax rights and obligations. Again, state, not religious.
If you get married, you have rights/obligations as to child custody. State, not religious.

Please name ONE right derived from being married that has its source in religion rather than the state. For every one right you name, I will be happy to name 10.
 
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FSTDT

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Arnold_Philips said:
Even if homosexuality is a conscious choice one makes (and is irreversible from that point on), does that mean that they deserve the rotten treatment they receive from some people? and the discrimination from government?

edited for clarification
The "homosexuality is a choice" argument is just a red herring, because whether its a choice or not does not explain why homosexuality should be condemned.

The reason why people state so forcefully that homosexuality is a choice is to paint homosexuals as people as wantonly immoral people, but this is entirely presumptuous because no one has yet explained why homosexuality is wrong in the first place. If people believe that sexuality is choice, then they need to explain the basis for why choosing homosexuality has immoral consequences that don't apply to heterosexualitiy, otherwise the statement "its a choice" is just a statement of fact and not an actual moral criticism of homosexuality, implying that both homosexuality and heterosexuality are morally indistinguishable.
 
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Archivist

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Mr. QWERTY said:
No, you are incorrect. Marriage is a state institution and not a religious one.

Actually it can be either civil or religious. Contrary to popular belief, in most jurisdictions the state does not license a marriage. It issue a license to marry which then must be solemized in either a civil ceremony before an official of the state or a religious celemony before a minister/rabbi/pastor/priest/etc. within a specified time period. Some juristictions also still recognize a Common Law marriage where a couple lives together and holds themselves out as being married.

For example, if you get married, you gain legal rights of inheritence. This is state, not religious.
If you get married, you have tax rights and obligations. Again, state, not religious.

True. However, these are functions that do not automatically flow from marriage. They were assigned to marriage by the state long after it existed as a civil institution. Further, at least in the case of inheritence, these rights can be altered by contract.

If you get married, you have rights/obligations as to child custody. State, not religious.

Actually you get those rights by being a parent whether you are married or not.

Please name ONE right derived from being married that has its source in religion rather than the state. For every one right you name, I will be happy to name 10.

Today this statement might be correct, but that isn't the case historically.
 
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D McCloud

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Arnold_Philips said:
Even if homosexuality is a conscious choice one makes (and is irreversible from that point on), does that mean that they deserve the rotten treatment they receive from some people? and the discrimination from government?

edited for clarification

Of course not, no one deserves to be treated as a second class citizens because of their sexual orientation.

However, I'm beginning to think that homosexuality and heterosexuality is a choice (although not a free choice), but our sexual orientation is not. In other words, our sexual orientation has to do with our feelings and our own self concepts of who we are, and the people we are naturally attracted to. In this sense we can either be gay or straight based on which sex we are naturally oriented towards. However, the terms homosexual and heterosexual are socially constructed based on what we do not who we are.

For instance there are many things that we can do which could cause us to be socially classified as being either homosexual or heterosexual without necessarily bieng gay. For example, how we dress, talk, the music we listen to, and the sports we like.
 
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spinto

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rebelEnigma said:
They don't deserve rotten treatment, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to marry. Government should not be involved in this anyway. And if gays want to get married, they need to take it up with churches that would allow gay-marriage, as marriage is a religious institution, not a state one.

Regardless of people thinking gay marriage should not be allowed and regardless that the government does not recognize those unions, does not change the fact that committed gay relationships and families exist. The government's position and the conservative, religious position does not STOP gay people from existing or getting together. And neither does disallowing equality and rights. So what does the stance against gay marriage accomplish except denying the rights of gay families to have legal protections for their families? Not too much from my view. The "evil" or "social decline" the conservatives are trying to prevent, as they say, is not being prevented--just justice and equality.

And, I would suggest that you peek beyond the pew, because marriage is a legal union that can and does exist separate and independently from religious tradition or "institution".
 
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Stinker

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D McCloud said:
Of course not, no one deserves to be treated as a second class citizens because of their sexual orientation.

However, I'm beginning to think that homosexuality and heterosexuality is a choice (although not a free choice), but our sexual orientation is not. In other words, our sexual orientation has to do with our feelings and our own self concepts of who we are, and the people we are naturally attracted to. In this sense we can either be gay or straight based on which sex we are naturally oriented towards. However, the terms homosexual and heterosexual are socially constructed based on what we do not who we are.

For instance there are many things that we can do which could cause us to be socially classified as being either homosexual or heterosexual without necessarily bieng gay. For example, how we dress, talk, the music we listen to, and the sports we like.

".....based on what we do not who we are."

Well, I do not think that Liberace would have been viewed any higher if he were dressed up as a cowboy, nor would have John Wayne been viewed any lower if he were dressed in a long flowing robe.

If you have the body of a man but the persona of a female, you are in for a rough life. For some reason, even in our civilized society, femininity is looked down upon. When a man has a female persona, people might be subconsciously interpreting it as a mocking of masculinity, and this could be the reason for the bad treatment they receive.
 
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faster_jackrabbit

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rebelEnigma said:
They don't deserve rotten treatment, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to marry. Government should not be involved in this anyway. And if gays want to get married, they need to take it up with churches that would allow gay-marriage, as marriage is a religious institution, not a state one.
Not true. Civil marriage is provided by the state. Many do not care about religious marriage. I was married by a justice of the peace. God had nothing to do with it. My marriage was as valid as any other, whether you think so or not.
 
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outlaw

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Lvythn said:
I'll be honest and say yes and no. Nobody deserves to be treated 'rotten' because of the way they are born, since they can't help it - but choices do not have to be tolerated.

Believe me, it's in your guys' best interests to promote homosexuality as biological.
Like the choice of ones religion?
 
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tcampen

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I've yet to see one shred of evidence that allowing homosexual marriage would jeopardize heterosexual marriages in any way. For those of you who think it would, please explain this to me...how would YOUR marriage change if two men were permitted to marry (by either civil or religious means). My wife and I have talked about this, and we can't come up with anything.
 
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