Chivalry

[ParsonJefferson]

Have you ever encountered anyone who has openly said they are offended by someone holding a door open for them, because I hold doors open for people all the time, must have opened up hundreds, thousands even, and not one person has ever expressed that they are offended. Even if one person did get disgruntled, that wouldn't stop me from continuing to be courteous and opening a door for someone the next time. What is your question getting at?

I have not personally encountered such a thing, no. I was asking cantata a question, based on something she had just said.

And I'm with you about the one person who is disgruntled. That's their problem, not mine.

 

[cantata]

Gotcha, thanks.

No problem.

Good, because it would not be a gesture of condescension.

I'm glad to hear it!

The only thing I object to is deciding to be more or less courteous to someone on the basis of their sex. If you open doors for anyone who looks like they'd appreciate it, have at it.

On the other hand, honestly, I think there are some people who make WAY too much - in a negative way - about something that might be nothing more than an honest, humble courtesy. Opening the door for women is not necessarily mysoginistic.

I do not consider opening doors for women to be misogynistic per se. It could be if it is, in fact, an act of condescension. It may also be sexist without being misogynistic. "Misogyny" is a very strong word.

The post I was originally responding to was making a broad-brush claim about all women dating "pricks" while "whining" about wanting a chivalrous man. I found that extremely rude, not to mention ignorant.

 

[jcook922]

The post I was originally responding to was making a broad-brush claim about all women dating "pricks" while "whining" about wanting a chivalrous man. I found that extremely rude, not to mention ignorant.

Unfortunately Some women, while not all, promote this stereotype by doing so. It's "Nice Guy" syndrome, and both genders are at fault.

 

[quatona]

I finally have found the explanation why some women don´t want to date me: I´m too great a guy. I have always been suspecting that that´s my greatest character flaw, anyways.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I also think we might need to extend some "grace" to people as well. I do know that there some men - particularly from the Builder Generation - who regularly will wink at, hold the door for, and call girls "Sweetie" and things like that. And honestly, I don't think they are being sexist or mean or mysoginistic at all. It might just be their way of being courteous and kind.

 

[jcook922]

I also think we might need to extend some "grace" to people as well. I do know that there some men - particularly from the Builder Generation - who regularly will wink at, hold the door for, and call girls "Sweetie" and things like that. And honestly, I don't think they are being sexist or mean or mysoginistic at all. It might just be their way of being courteous and kind.

Aye, where words like Sweetie are meant as a compliment and not a sexual advance. Unfortunately then it's up to the discretion of the female to determine which it is sometimes, and meanings can be misinterpreted.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Aye, where words like Sweetie are meant as a compliment and not a sexual advance. Unfortunately then it's up to the discretion of the female to determine which it is sometimes, and meanings can be misinterpreted.

Exactly.

See, you and I know that calling a girl "Sweetie" is not a good idea today, but the 82-year old WWII Veteran may not know that. And he might find himself very surprised - and hurt - that what was meant as a simple compliment was somehow wrong to say.

So perhaps there are some women who need to come up to speed on things? My wife, for instance, would not be at all offended if an old codger held the door for her, and called her Sweetie. She'd understand. But she'd also be a little perturbed if a 40-year old was ogling her and doing the same...

 

[Bombila]

Exactly.

See, you and I know that calling a girl "Sweetie" is not a good idea today, but the 82-year old WWII Veteran may not know that. And he might find himself very surprised - and hurt - that what was meant as a simple compliment was somehow wrong to say.

So perhaps there are some women who need to come up to speed on things? My wife, for instance, would not be at all offended if an old codger held the door for her, and called her Sweetie. She'd understand. But she'd also be a little perturbed if a 40-year old was ogling her and doing the same...

I honestly suspect that these snarling women are to a great extent imaginary, or the result of one or two encounters with very ignorant or ill-tempered women. Most of us are perfectly able to tell the difference between a man being condescending or sexually inapproriate and a man being courteous or a man who is elderly and being 'courtly'.

My entire objection to the term 'chivalry' is that it is a word left over from feudalism and IMO connotes a false courtesy, dependant on status and not applicable to those considered of 'lower station' to oneself. Plain common politeness, kindness, etc. are words that describe good manners much better and don't include issues of 'romance' and status.

 

[stan1980]

Some of the whinging here (mainly by men I might add) is starting to sound a bit pathetic if truth be told, and I'm getting the impression that some of you are blaming women for your own short comings.

99 times out of a 100, when you make a comment to anyone, I've found it is normally taken in the way it was supposed to be taken, and no offence will be caused unless your purpose was to cause offence. The one time there is a misunderstanding, well... you'll know better next time.

If a women knocks back someone who you think is a nice guy in favour of someone who you think is not such a nice guy, their 'niceness' probably had little to do with the knock back. There could be any number of reasons, such as little rapport, little attraction, little charisma and so forth. If you think just being nice will guarantee you will get your way, you'll probably be wrong, but it wont normally count against you.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I honestly suspect that these snarling women are to a great extent imaginary, or the result of one or two encounters with very ignorant or ill-tempered women. Most of us are perfectly able to tell the difference between a man being condescending or sexually inapproriate and a man being courteous or a man who is elderly and being 'courtly'.

My entire objection to the term 'chivalry' is that it is a word left over from feudalism and IMO connotes a false courtesy, dependant on status and not applicable to those considered of 'lower station' to oneself. Plain common politeness, kindness, etc. are words that describe good manners much better and don't include issues of 'romance' and status.

Don't you think that's what most people consider chivalry to be? Just good manners, politeness, letting others go through a door before you, etc.?

So maybe you're right. Maybe we should drop the use of the word "chivalry" and should just focus on being courteous.

 

[jcook922]

Some of the whinging here (mainly by men I might add) is starting to sound a bit pathetic if truth be told, and I'm getting the impression that some of you are blaming women for your own short comings.

99 times out of a 100, when you make a comment to anyone, I've found it is normally taken in the way it was supposed to be taken, and no offence will be caused unless your purpose was to cause offence. The one time there is a misunderstanding, well... you'll know better next time.

If a women knocks back someone who you think is a nice guy in favour of someone who you think is not such a nice guy, their 'niceness' probably had little to do with the knock back. There could be any number of reasons, such as little rapport, little attraction, little charisma and so forth. If you think just being nice will guarantee you will get your way, you'll probably be wrong, but it wont normally count against you.

I'm lucky enough to be with an extremely wonderful and devoted woman, but my complaint isn't so much on the male side, although there are pathetic males who blame women not going out with them on the females. I have alot of female friends who do go out with abusive jackasses and stick with them for some unknown reason, or guilt. That was more my point, that it varies.

 

[stan1980]

I'm lucky enough to be with an extremely wonderful and devoted woman, but my complaint isn't so much on the male side, although there are pathetic males who blame women not going out with them on the females. I have alot of female friends who do go out with abusive jackasses and stick with them for some unknown reason, or guilt. That was more my point, that it varies.

Just so you know, my post wasn't aimed at you or any specific person, it was just a general comment in response to the tone of some of the other posts going all the way through this thread.

I suspect your friends that are going out with jackasses do so because they have a strong rapport, emotional connection and general attraction to the person in question. I'm not really buying though, that jackasses are automatically or generally more attractive to the female sex. It's far too much of a generalisation and I really do think it is just one of those things you notice more when you see it happen. For instance, you see a jackass, and think "why is she going out with him", but you never question all the other relationships where the male (or female) isn't a jackass.

 

[RevDerek]

While Chivalry is not completely dead, it surely needs to be revived. The world would be a much better place.

 

[Bombila]

Don't you think that's what most people consider chivalry to be? Just good manners, politeness, letting others go through a door before you, etc.?

So maybe you're right. Maybe we should drop the use of the word "chivalry" and should just focus on being courteous.

I will grant you it is a pet peeve, but it is based on my experience of men who talk chivalry and mean condesension. My age may have a lot to do with my dislike of the word - I am pushing sixty, and as a young woman had to put up with a lot of experiences younger women know of only as ancient history. I assure you, most men were very 'chivalrous' while explaining to me why my pay was less, why some jobs were men-only, and why women can't be artists, all the while asuming my '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tiness' for wanting to 'be like a man'.

In another fifty years, maybe it will be a word no one cares about, or they'll consider it quaint and harmless. Right now, for me it is loaded and inaccurate, and doesn't describe the good behaviours we are discussing very well at all, IMPO.

And it still is a word associated mainly with male behaviour, whereas 'good manners, politeness, kindness' are genderless words and ought to be normal behaviour for everybody. How often have you heard a woman described as 'chivalrous'? Who calls a woman 'ladylike' today without conjuring a vision of an overdressed ornament at a tea party?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I will grant you it is a pet peeve, but it is based on my experience of men who talk chivalry and mean condesension. My age may have a lot to do with my dislike of the word - I am pushing sixty, and as a young woman had to put up with a lot of experiences younger women know of only as ancient history. I assure you, most men were very 'chivalrous' while explaining to me why my pay was less, why some jobs were men-only, and why women can't be artists, all the while asuming my '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tiness' for wanting to 'be like a man'.

In another fifty years, maybe it will be a word no one cares about, or they'll consider it quaint and harmless. Right now, for me it is loaded and inaccurate, and doesn't describe the good behaviours we are discussing very well at all, IMPO.

And it still is a word associated mainly with male behaviour, whereas 'good manners, politeness, kindness' are genderless words and ought to be normal behaviour for everybody. How often have you heard a woman described as 'chivalrous'? Who calls a woman 'ladylike' today without conjuring a vision of an overdressed ornament at a tea party?

Points taken. Thank you.

So let's just be "courteous" then, shall we?

 

[cantata]

Courtesy for the win!

I *love* courtesy, and politeness, and kindness. I definitely think these are the words we need to be using.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Courtesy for the win!

I *love* courtesy, and politeness, and kindness. I definitely think these are the words we need to be using.

There, there. Now that's awfully cute of you, sweetie pie!

 

[Bombila]

Agreed, Parson Jefferson and Cantata.

(And you kids git off my lawn! Dang it.) - B - whose avatar is not a fossil bee for no reason.

 

[quatona]

So let's just be "courteous" then, shall we?

+ 1

 

[keith99]

Courtesy for the win!

I *love* courtesy, and politeness, and kindness. I definitely think these are the words we need to be using.

Yes. This cuts loose the baggage and also is something all can work toward.