Chivalry

[TheReasoner]

Actually- you don't hear what I'm saying if you are comparing me to women who would bite off your head for offering to help. I made no suggestion that I am offended by an offer of help.
I take issue with the drama, the play acting. the assumption that to be a polite individual a man must perform simple symbolic tasks to assert their role as the stronger person around the "weaker" sex.

It seems we're talking past one another. She saw it as "drama" intended to enforce the notion of men being the strong sex, and women the weak.
I don't play act at all. It's how I was raised. It's not intended to be derogatory in any way. It's intended to show appreciation and brighten other people's days. I don't see what's wrong with that. And I guess I could take offense at you seeing my desire to be friendly and introduce some warmth into my surroundings as a means of oppression. I won't though. But I do think this has to be a cultural difference. One which is hard to explain in words.

 

[cantata]

I can see the appeal of being chivalrous. When I've been in romantic relationships with women, I've felt a peculiar urge to pull back chairs, help on with coats, open doors, &c. When you love someone, you want to do nice things for them, and somehow, however much it bothers me to say it, it's easier to do some of those things for a woman than for a man. (From a practical point of view, me helping my boyfriend on with his coat would be an hilarious sight; he's about a foot taller than me and wears the heaviest parka I have ever encountered.) Perhaps it's because a lot of men would just look confused. I dunno, it's not an instinct I'm proud of. I should probably make an effort to be more chivalrous with my boyfriend. I do try to do little nice things for him, and he certainly does the same for me.

The thing is, I think in a relationship it's mostly important to do the things for your partner that they actually want you to do. And the trick is to try it out and see what reaction you get. If you pull out a chair for your girlfriend, and she looks at you with a "Dude(tte), I can do it myself" expression, you needn't bother next time. If she looks appreciative, have at it. The same goes, of course, for boyfriends. There's nothing sexist about doing things for your partner that they appreciate. But you probably shouldn't persist if they clearly don't like it.

 

[Asimov]

There is nothing wrong with personally acting that way. It's when you try and turn it into a moral code and condemn other people for not acting the way that you do.

Ridiculous.

 

[Bombila]

Thank you! Thats exactly what Nick does and I think it is a cultural thing, although Bombilla may be able to say otherwise since they live fairly close. Nick was just raised to be that way, it has nothing to do with belittling women.

To clarify, the kind of behaviours you are referring to here are often charming (and yes, there is cultural resonance, given the area), the men have been brought up to extend courtesy in specific manners to women, and in no way do they intend to demean women by so acting. However, no man I was brought up with would have referred to his behaviour with women as being 'chivalrous', nor would he have related his behaviour to a feudal code of manners practiced by mercenary knights (unless he was being a tad more romantic and fantastical than most girls would have been comfortable with).

'Chivalry' bears a larger burden of meaning than just 'mannerly and helpful'. When Nick opens a door or walks on the outside of the sidewalk* or carries your parcels, he does so to be respectful, mannerly and helpful in the tradition of his (and my) culture.

When a knight of mediaeval England did the same, he was first following a code, second and most likely sucking up to some female relative of someone more powerful than he was, and often, thirdly, attempting to gain prestige by having as a lover the wife/daughter/sister of a powerful landowner. The same knight, the same day, was capable of running his horse over a peasant child in his way and raping a farmer's daughter caught working in the fields, without in any way thinking he had broken his vow to be 'chivalrous'.

So for many people who don't buy into romances about fantastical and purely imaginary Mediaeval courtesies, 'chivalry' is just a word that has connotations of dishonesty, of double-think. Words like polite, mannerly, respectful, kind, charming and so on are, IMO, much better words to describe what Nick and men like him are really trying to be.

*Since there were no sidewalks in the community I grew up in, I first encountered that behaviour when I moved to the city, and found it hard to get used to, what with the fella jumping around every time we crossed a street. Also, given the conditions in Mediaeval times, placing the lady on the inside meant she was much more likely to be the one receiving the benefit of the flung contents of chamberpots from above. ;-)

 

[OphidiaPhile]

Well I have a girlfriend that absolutely hates it when I open the door for her or in any way treat her differently than I would a male friend, so I do not do those things out of respect for her feelings, I will interject that she is not feminine in many ways and is much more the quintessential Tom-Boy.

 

[quatona]

I like chivalry when women display it towards me.

 

[Bombila]

Well I have a girlfriend that absolutely hates it when I open the door for her or in any way treat her differently than I would a male friend, so I do not do those things out of respect for her feelings, I will interject that she is not feminine in many ways and is much more the quintessential Tom-Boy.

That is her preference, but it isn't mine. The business of door-opening is an equal opportunity polite act. If I am just ahead of someone, man or woman, I will hold a door open for them, and expect the same in return. If someone's arms are full, or they are elderly, or pushing a stroller , I will go out of my way to open a door for them. I will give up my bus seat to man or woman if they appear to need it more than I do. It's just being polite, kind. It shouldn't be a gender specific way of acting.

 

[Admiral Kirk]

Personally, I try to be chivalrous when I can, though of course I, as everyone, stumble from time to time. I place Biblical morals and rules first above the concept of chivalry, but I still try to adhere to the classic chivalric knightly virtues.

 

[Bombila]

Feudalism, it's so romantic./facepalm...

 

[Isambard]

For those who desire chilvary, I suggest you move to Saudi Arabia.

Face it, chilvary was nothing more than a sexy name for gender roles. The romantized "chivalry" that people are espousing, never existed as chivalry was always about gender roles. Instead, they've confused chilvary with humanism.

 

[keith99]

I agree with the original poster. Chivalry, especially it's moral values and concept of manners (i.e., gentleman's behavior), should be taught again to our future generations. The world's grown increasingly corrupt in one century alone.

Well at least we have one data point showing that the teaching of history has decreased in far less than 100 years.

 

[keith99]

Was Chivalry ever truely alive?

Thinking of both history and fiction I think of only one truely chivalrous man. Aral VorKosigan.

I don't measure up, I doubt any real person could.

But at the core of VorKosigan there was one thing, this above all others. Oh there was the code, but in that one above all. Your word is good.

Opening doors, the kind of politeness often associated with chivalry was far down the list.

If just 1% of those who spoke of chivalry really aspired to that of VorKosigan I'd be all for a revival. But I doubt the number will ever get that high.

 

[ttreg]

Wanna know why chivalry is dead? Women say they want a chivalrous man, but they only date pricks then whine about it. Most men that are chivalrous are considered "too nice", so women tend to not choose them as partners.

Quoted for truth.

 

[cantata]

Wanna know why chivalry is dead? Women say they want a chivalrous man, but they only date pricks then whine about it. Most men that are chivalrous are considered "too nice", so women tend to not choose them as partners.

Or maybe it's just that they find that the men who claim to be chivalrous are actually deeply misogynistic.

 

[stan1980]

Wanna know why chivalry is dead? Women say they want a chivalrous man, but they only date pricks then whine about it. Most men that are chivalrous are considered "too nice", so women tend to not choose them as partners.

I think you've got it wrong. I think that it is a myth that women (in general) are more attracted to 'pricks' as you put it. There are certainly some attracted to the 'bad guy' just like some men are attracted to 'bad girls' (myself included... a tiny little bit anyway!), but I don't think you can make any generalisations about a whole sex here.

From personal observations, if there is any correlation or more accurate generalisations to be made, men (and women) who exude more self-confidence are probably more successful with the opposite sex than those who aren't as confident, which when you think about it isn't that much of a surprise!

Both pricks and nice people can have self-confidence and be successful with the opposite sex, you just probably notice it more when a woman dates someone you perceive to be a prick and selectively forget all the relationships where 'nice' people are involved. It's a common misconception in my opinion.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Do you believe that chivalry is dead in today's world?
Do you believe that it has any place in today's world?
If so, should it be revived?


I do believe that it is still around but perhaps so small so minor that people think it is dead. I believe it should be revived and that it has a place in the world perhaps I have been reading to many Bernard Cornwell novels.

I don't know whether it's dead or alive, or is supposed to be, or what.

What I do know is that I always hold the door open for people, if they're anywhere near me when I go in or out of a building, whether they're male or female, young or old.

I don't know whether that's chivalry, or just me feeling good about being courteous to people. Either way, doesn't matter much to me.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Or maybe it's just that they find that the men who claim to be chivalrous are actually deeply misogynistic.

Would you be offended if I held a door open for you? If so, why?

 

[cantata]

Would you be offended if I held a door open for you? If so, why?

The post you quote was a somewhat facetious response to a deeply misogynistic complaint from another poster.

However, since you ask, no, not at all. I would be disappointed if it turned out that you only held doors open for women, though.

 

[stan1980]

Would you be offended if I held a door open for you? If so, why?

Have you ever encountered anyone who has openly said they are offended by someone holding a door open for them, because I hold doors open for people all the time, must have opened up hundreds, thousands even, and not one person has ever expressed that they are offended. Even if one person did get disgruntled, that wouldn't stop me from continuing to be courteous and opening a door for someone the next time. What is your question getting at?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

The post you quote was a somewhat facetious response to a deeply misogynistic complaint from another poster.

Gotcha, thanks.

However, since you ask, no, not at all. I would be disappointed if it turned out that you only held doors open for women, though.

Good, because it would not be a gesture of condescension.

On the other hand, honestly, I think there are some people who make WAY too much - in a negative way - about something that might be nothing more than an honest, humble courtesy. Opening the door for women is not necessarily mysoginistic.