China says it's not the right time for peace talks

[Hans Blaster]

I understand this. Even in 2014, I couldn't understand our involvement with Ukraine. Because of mixed demographics in East and West. Maybe this has to do with Ukraine struggling to get recruits. Yanukovych had more support from east and southern Ukraine. Yanukovych fled because he saw the writing on the wall from. When the Nuland call hit the news it sure seemed like meddling maybe on Fox.

That was the intent of the release of the audio by Russia -- to make you think we were meddling.

The USA turned a blind eye to neo-Nazis in Ukraine which I also heard back in the day.

There are neo-Nazis in every country in Europe including Russia. They don't have power in any of them, not even Ukraine.

I meant meddling with Iraq and Lybia.

Don't get me wrong I do hope Ukraine wins because of the amount of capital we are spending and to save face.

I always find this "face saving" thing to be odd.

This is pretty much how I feel with NATO: How much do we need, the whole world?

Russia Has Been Warning About Ukraine for Decades. The West Should Have Listened

"The threat to NATO’s safety and prestige are largely of its own making with its empty commitments to countries that it has neither the will nor the ability to defend."

time.com

There are some predictions that the author doesn't really get right in that article, but to be fair the *analyses* from early 2022 are often quite wrong.

 

[Laodicean60]

That was the intent of the release of the audio by Russia -- to make you think we were meddling.

We just got caught. How much do we not know? Benghazi incident we wouldn't have known the CIA was black market arms.

There are neo-Nazis in every country in Europe including Russia. They don't have power in any of them, not even Ukraine.

In government? in their military? When we were giving money to Ukraine around 2014 we were worried about some of that money going to the neo nazis.

I always find this "face saving" thing to be odd.

I guess different stroke I just don't like my country to be an embarrassment in the world. Maybe it's pride. The article talks about NATO expansion and I see that as a problem to some countries. If we wanted to live peaceably with countries around the world why antagonize them?

 

[Laodicean60]

I don't think the US has ever had any success at bringing Putin to a negotiating table - especially for anything that didn't directly involve us.

We used to have a warm relationship with Russia which turned cold during Obama admin.

And I'm pretty sure we're not asking China to take that role in Ukraine - they're volunteering themselves.

Yes, I'm sure we aren't, or at least not openly. We wouldn't risk the embarrassment of China showing the world that they gave us the middle finger like so many other countries have done when asked for something.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

We used to have a warm relationship with Russia which turned cold during Obama admin.

What do you base this assertion on? Our relationship with Russia has fluctuated dramatically since the end of the Cold War. Initially, things were great - Bush Sr. was able to make a lot of strong agreements with Russian leadership in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of the USSR on everything from arms control to German reunification to stopping Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. Then Russia went through a series of political and economic crises fueled by the chaos left in the wake of the dissolution of the USSR, withdrew from the international community, and started peddling a narrative of victimization by America.

Then Clinton took office and initially had some success in working with Yeltsin to strengthen democratic reforms in Russia, but that quickly fell apart between a constitutional crisis (which saw a consolidation of power in the executive branch), the invasion of Chechnya, and the Kosovo war.

Bush Jr was able to develop a relationship with Russia centered around September 11th and the invasion of Afghanistan (recall that Russia has unfinished business there), but that too collapsed with our invasion of Iraq and Putin's backsliding on democratic initiatives, as well as revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia, and Kyrgyzstan and the offer of future NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine (culminating in the 2008 Russo-Georgian war).

Under Obama, things again started looking up - Russia elected a new president (Medvedev), pledged to work on political and economic reforms, and even signed a new arms reduction treaty. Then the Arab Spring happened and Russia disapproved of our support for the overthrow of Qaddafi and Assad. Putin was re-elected, and most of the previous reforms were abandoned. Which takes us to 2014.

Yes, I'm sure we aren't, or at least not openly. We wouldn't risk the embarrassment of China showing the world that they gave us the middle finger like so many other countries have done when asked for something.

Then why say that we're asking them?

When we used to be the leader nation we could bring countries to the table now we ask China to.

 

[Hans Blaster]

We just got caught. How much do we not know? Benghazi incident we wouldn't have known the CIA was black market arms.

Caught doing what? They were some State Department officials talking about the political situation in a country they work in/on. They expressed their preferences for the outcomes and who they were planning to talk to. Presumably, they did talk to some of the Ukrainian politicians they discussed. The whole point of Russia releasing that audio was to sow confusing narratives about nefarious American actions.

In government? in their military? When we were giving money to Ukraine around 2014 we were worried about some of that money going to the neo nazis.

There was a far-right Ukrainian nationalist group that used symbols often used by neo-Nazi groups (I don't know if they were technically or not, but they were close enough) that volunteered to fight for their country in an organized unit *after* Russia invaded and fought under the command and control of the Ukrainian armed forces. That's all, a small regulated militia.

 

[Laodicean60]

I will end this conversation but I still feel the need for peace. I understand Russia's attack on Ukraine was wrong but I still maintain that the USA and NATO aren't innocent. The outcome of all our meddling will end in WW3; any right-minded person doesn't want that. If anyone is interested I posted a speech by Chas W. Freeman, Jr. to East Bay Citizens for Peace.

The Many Lessons of the Ukraine War – Chas W. Freeman, Jr.

 

[totallylovedbygod]

we need to pray