Children of wrath by nature vs Vessels of Wrath

[hedrick]

Good Day. Bling

All my electronic versions have (dishonor)

NRSV has "ordinary use." Unfortunately TDNT doesn't list the word. Strong's, Louw-Nida, and everything I can find online say dishonorable.

I would point out the chamber pots are necessary. This is not obviously equivalent to "fit for destruction."

 

[Hark]

1 Cor 3:17 isn't so obvious. It continues the metaphor of the building, so it does seem to be part of the same passage as 10-15. Yet destroyed seems more absolute than the punishment of 3:15.

A reasonable suggestion is that there's a difference between having flaws in your building, as in 10-16 and destroying the temple, as in 17.

Is this not the temple of the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So if the temple which is the physical body is destroyed, then I can see how the church will be judged for not departing from iniquity in defiling that temple of God which we are.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Not every believer will heed the warning not to sow to the flesh as they will reap corruption for which the wages of sin is physical death when the Bridegroom comes to judge His House & reprobates are left behind for not being ready as found abiding in Him ( Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 ) or even for not being willing to go because they love this life more than Him ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 ).

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Believers really need to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) for the high prize of our calling to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) to attend the marriage Supper in Heaven which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Jesus Christ. Yes. we all need to pray that we would not be ensnared by the acres of this life that we would not want to leave when He comes Luke 21:33-36

So our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and what we sow towards; the works of the flesh as heresy is a work of the flesh, or the fruits of the Spirit, will be judged on what is on that foundation.

May those who hope in the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 john 3:3 ) rests in Him to finish His work in us to His glory.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[hedrick]

Is this not the temple of the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So if the temple which is the physical body is destroyed, then I can see how the church will be judged for not departing from iniquity in defiling that temple of God which we are.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Not every believer will heed the warning not to sow to the flesh as they will reap corruption for which the wages of sin is physical death when the Bridegroom comes to judge His House & reprobates are left behind for not being ready as found abiding in Him ( Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 ) or even for not being willing to go because they love this life more than Him ( Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36 ).

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Believers really need to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) for the high prize of our calling to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) to attend the marriage Supper in Heaven which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Jesus Christ. Yes. we all need to pray that we would not be ensnared by the acres of this life that we would not want to leave when He comes Luke 21:33-36

So our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and what we sow towards; the works of the flesh as heresy is a work of the flesh, or the fruits of the Spirit, will be judged on what is on that foundation.

May those who hope in the Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 john 3:3 ) rests in Him to finish His work in us to His glory.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The same symbol can be used in different ways in different places. If you start at the beginning of the chapter, it seems that Paul is speaking of the Church as the building.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now most confound these two, as if they're referring to the same groups of people.

Those in Eph 2:3 are the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In fact these children of wrath by nature are described as being objects of Gods Rich Mercy and Love while being by nature children of wrath Mercy Eph 2:3-4

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So these in Eph 2:3 coincide with what Paul calls vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23-24

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Which of course are a entirely different group from the vessels of wrath mentioned in Rom 9

Our omniscient and omnipresent God created all pots knowing their outcome. I think the question your asking here is did He determine their outcome? These verses you’ve quoted here do not imply that God has determined their outcome they imply that He created them knowing their outcome.

 

[bling]

If you take 2 Timothy 2:18 in account about how some believers that err, had their faith overthrown, and 2 Timothy 2:19 is why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity which also includes the believers to depart from iniquity, then He may help us to see when not everyone will be ready when the Bridegroom comes and they get left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) to await their resurrection after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth from all over the world as vessels unto wood & earth in raising up the coming generations during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Labelled as vessels unto dishonor is a damnation for not being ready but still saved. Only the power of the second death will not be over them.

The firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus as the firstfruits will never die, never marry, as in, be like the angels and live in the City of God in one of the many mansions Christ has prepared for the firstfruits.

I hope in Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd & Friend in helping me to abide in Him & walk in the light as I look to Him daily to help me lay aside every weight & sin in running that race as my confidence is in the Lord to finish His work in me to His glory. Hebrews 12:1-2 & 2 Timothy 4:18 & Jude 1:24-25

None who place all of their hopes in the Lord for everything, will be put to shame. 1 John 3:3

But there will be vessels unto dishonor in His House for why there will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven that break even the least of His commandments and teaches others to do the same. Matthew 5:19 The call to be ready or else is plain per Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 as well as being willing to go in leaving our lives, treasures, & loved ones on earth when the Bridegroom comes; Luke 14:15-35 & Luke 21:33-36 or else we can wind up left behind to be resurrected later on as vessels unto dishonor.

Paul is not referring to the rapture and 1000 year rein. In 2 Tim. 2:18-21, Paul is talking about people and even the Gentiles can become useful to God.

 

[bling]

The elect by nature [ as they are naturally born] there is no difference between the elect of God and the non elect who shall die in their sins. Now naturally speaking the Elect with the Non elect deserve Gods Wrath and Eternal condemnation. However since Christs death for the Elect, He being their substitute surety, and saviour redeemer, made a difference, they are not the vessels of wrath who are being fitted for destruction.

The Jews were made for a special purpose and the Gentile were made for a more common purpose.

 

[bling]

The children of wrath by nature, Eph 2:3 were always at the same time vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, and they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

But the vessels of wrath of Rom 9:22, they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Why are you one of the lucky ones?
Why did God harden His heart against the unlucky ones since there is no difference?

 

[bling]

Good Day. Bling

All my electronic versions have (dishonor)

(ASV) Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
(Bishops) Hath not the potter power ouer the clay, euen of the same lumpe to make one vessel vnto honour, and another vnto dishonour?
(Darby) Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?
(ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(ESV+) R3Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump R4one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(Geneva) Hath not the potter power of the clay to make of the same lumpe one vessell to honour, and another vnto dishonour?
(KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(KJV+) (G2228) HathG2192 notG3756 theG3588 potterG2763 powerG1849 over theG3588 clay,G4081 ofG1537 theG3588 sameG846 lumpG5445 to makeG4160 oneG3739 G3303 vesselG4632 untoG1519 honour,G5092 andG1161 anotherG3739 untoG1519 dishonour?G819
(YLT) hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?


Douglas Moo Notes: http://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Romans NICNT.pdf


Snip: 21 Paul continues to use the imagery of the potter and his clay to reinforce the point of v. 20. His rhetorical question asserts the right72 of the potter to make out of the same "lump" of clay both a vessel "for honor"7 3 and one "for dishonor."74 While Isa. 29:16 and (probably) 45:9 have furnished the immediate source of Paul's language, the metaphorical application of the potter and the clay is quite widespread in both the OT and Judaism.75 Scholars have argued that one text or another is key to Paul's imagery here and draw conclusions about Paul's meaning accordingly. Noting that several of the OT texts involved (Isa. 45:9; Jer. 18:6-10) focus on Israel as a nation, some scholars think that Paul is arguing for God's right to use the people of Israel "for dishonor" — in other words, to use the nation in a negative way in salvation history.76 The idea that Paul is focusing on God's use of what he makes rather than on the making itself is suggested also, it is argued, by the probable allusion to Wis. 15:77 7 and by the clear

70. The first six words — uf| epei x6 itXaopxx id) irlaaavTi — match the LXX of Isa. 29:16a exactly. The rest of the verse may reflect Isa. 45:9b — LXX pf| epei 6 nr\}jbq TOO xepauel, TC jcotetc,, 6xi oiix epya£n oiiSe exeu; x&P&Z "The clay will not say to the potter, will it, 'Why have you made me?' for you do not work, neither do you have hands?" (e.g., Kuss; Schlier; Dunn). Johnson, however, thinks Paul may be thinking of Wis. 12:12 (Function, 132-33). 7 1. Gk. avrraTTOxpivouoct, a term that suggests the nuance of contention. See, e.g., its only other NT occurrence: the Pharisees, wanting to condemn Jesus for his Sabbath healing but confronted with Jesus' provoking question, "were not able to answer back to these things" (Luke 14:6; cf. also Job 16:8; BAGD; Dunn). 72. Gk. e^owtav. 73. Gk. elc, Tiuriv. 74. Gk. el<; axiufav. 75. See esp. Job 10:9; 38:14; Isa. 29:16; 45:9-10; 64:7; Jer. 18:1-6; Sir. 33:13; Wis. 15:7; T. Naph. 2:2, 4; 1QS 11:22. 76. E.g., Munck, Christ and Israel, p. 58; Godet. Hays (p. 66) thinks that the key text is Jer. 18 and that Paul therefore implies, as does the Jeremiah text, that God is working with his vessels to reshape them. While hardened for the moment, therefore, the Jews have the opportunity to repent and be reestablished as the people of God. 77. "For when a potter [xepapeucj kneads the soft earth and laboriously molds [nXdaoei] each vessel for our service, he fashions out of the same clay [rnitarii] both the vessels [oxeurt] that serve clean uses and those for contrary uses, making all in like manner, but which shall be the use of each of these the worker in clay decides." 602 9:14-23 OBJECTIONS ANSWERED: THE FREEDOM AND PURPOSE OF GOD 603 parallel between this text and 2 Tim. 2:20.78 On this general approach, then, the verse is asserting God's right to use nations, or individuals, for different purposes in his unfolding plan of salvation.79 Some — such as Ishmael, Esau, Pharaoh, and the hardened Jews — have a negative or "dishonorable" role to play in the purposes of God in history. Others — such as Isaac, Jacob, and believing Jews and Gentiles — have a positive role.


Other scholars, however, note that many of the OT and Jewish texts that compare God to a potter focus on God as Creator — a point that Paul underscores by using the verb plasso*0 Further, the contrast between "honor" and "dishonor" is said to match the contrast between "glory" and "wrath," or "destruction," in vv. 22-23.81 On this reading, Paul is asserting God's right to make from the mass of humanity (the "lump") some persons who are destined to inherit salvation and others who are destined for wrath and condemnation.82 Certainty about which OT and Jewish texts Paul may have in mind is impossible to attain and probably immaterial: Paul's imagery is probably distilled generally from many of them without being specifically dependent on any one of them.83 This means that our exegetical conclusions must be guided by Paul's own use of the metaphor, and not by any specific contexts in which the metaphor appears.


We have seen that Paul is applying his teaching to the issue of the present spiritual condition and eternal destiny of unbelieving Jews (and believing Jews and Gentiles). This makes it likely that Paul is thinking here also of the eternal destinies of individuals.


78. 'in a great house there are not only vessels [oxetinj of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for noble use [& UEV eic, Turn.v], some for ignoble [& 5e eic, atipiav]. " 79. See, e.g., Gifford; Morris; Cranfield; Leenhardt; Beyschlag, Theodicee, pp. 55-56; H. H. Rowley, The Biblical Doctrine of Election (London: Lutterworth, 1950), pp. 40-42. 80. This verb is used in the creation account (Gen. 2:7) and in many other texts referring to God as Creator (Job 10:8-9; Ps. 33:15; 2 Mace. 7:23; Josephus, Ant. 1.32,34; cf. Dunn, 2.556). Paul's only other use of the verb is in reference to creation (1 Tim. 2:13). Miiller (over-?)stresses the importance of creation ideas in this context (Gottes Gerechtigkeit, pp. 28-29). 81. xipri is used as a synonym of glory in Rom. 2:7, 10, while axiptoc is used as the opposite of glory in 1 Cor. 15:43. On the other hand, Paul never elsewhere uses atipf a of eternal destiny. And the closest verbal parallel to this language is in 2 Tim. 2:20 (oxeuVj, etc, tipi^v, etc, atiptocv), which does not speak of eternal destiny. 82. See esp. Piper, 174-83; Hodge; Murray. 83. See esp. Cranfield. Thus, e.g., the vocabulary of v. 21 is closest to Wis. 15:7 (they share the Greek words xepapeuc,, icr\X6q, and rcXaooco), but the respective contexts (the text in Wisdom focuses on the foolishness of idolatry) are quite distinct (see Piper, 176-77). THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS.

Your commentary author is trying to explain away the use of the exact same Greek words in 2 Tim. 2:20 by the same author (Paul) dealing with a similar topic, but does a very poor job of it.
He also has the potter reforming the pot in Ro. 9 after it is made and left the shop, while in Jer. 18 the clay is still on the wheel prior to leaving the shop and in 2 Tim. 2:20 the pot itself is changing itself.

 

[Hark]

The same symbol can be used in different ways in different places. If you start at the beginning of the chapter, it seems that Paul is speaking of the Church as the building.

But in context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 in how God will judge every man of his works on that foundation in that day per verse 13 for why the spirit will be saved in spite of defiling the temple of God for why the physical body is destroyed per verses 16-17, because that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does too. So it cannot be applied to a church or a church building but individual believer.

 

[Hark]

Paul is not referring to the rapture and 1000 year rein. In 2 Tim. 2:18-21, Paul is talking about people and even the Gentiles can become useful to God.

2 Timothy 2:18-21 testifies in verse 18 about how believers err from the truth & had their faith overthrown for why former believers are still to be called to depart from iniquity or else become a vessel unto dishonor which will happen when they are left behind for not departing from iniquity.

This is the faithful saying in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 in how in verse 12, if they deny Him, He will deny them, but in verse 13, even if they believe not in Him any more, He is faithful for He still abides. So even though any work of iniquity is the same as verbally denying Him per Titus 1:16, He will deny them attendance to the Marriage Supper above, but He will still abide in those saints left behind that will die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation.

This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from as reprobates and disqualified that as vessels of wood & earth serves the King of kings on earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

So when you apply 2 Timothy 2:10-13 with 2 Timothy 2:18-21, Paul is referring to the rapture event and the consequences thereof for why He would deny some and the point of calling believers to depart from iniquity is so they ca obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation to be that vessel unto honor in His House

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[hedrick]

But in context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 in how God will judge every man of his works on that foundation in that day per verse 13 for why the spirit will be saved in spite of defiling the temple of God for why the physical body is destroyed per verses 16-17, because that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does too. So it cannot be applied to a church or a church building but individual believer.

I had always assumed that 3:13 was talking about how believers would be judged. But on looking at the whole section I'm no longer convinced. 5-9 talks about Paul's work with the Church. 10 talks about Paul as a builder. 11+ seems thus to be talking about other church leaders or perhaps members as they affect the Church. At the end of the section, 21 is again clearly about leaders, and chapter 4 continues that. The 3 modern commentaries I consulted all understand this section as being about church leadership.

Calvin understands 16 as about members, but otherwise sees the section as about leaders. Of 16, he says "Having admonished the teachers as to their duty, he now addresses himself to the pupils—that they, too, may take heed to themselves. To the teachers he had said, “You are the master-builders of the house of God.” He now says to the people, “You are the temples of God. It is your part, therefore, to take care that you be not in any way defiled.” However in 17 he returns to understanding it as about the leaders: "The kind of profanation of which he now speaks, is, when men intrude themselves, so as to bear rule in the Church in the place of God."

I think it's very likely that the work mentioned in 13 is the work of other leaders in building the Church and thus that 17 is talking about people who destroy the Church, presumably through either heresy or tolerating immorality, since that seems to be main issue of the letter.

I don't object to applying 3:13 more broadly to how God judges believers. But the context is more specific.

 

[hedrick]

cancele

 

[Hark]

I had always assumed that 3:13 was talking about how believers would be judged. But on looking at the whole section I'm no longer convinced. 5-9 talks about Paul's work with the Church. 10 talks about Paul as a builder. 11+ seems thus to be talking about other church leaders or perhaps members as they affect the Church. At the end of the section, 21 is again clearly about leaders, and chapter 4 continues that. The 3 modern commentaries I consulted all understand this section as being about church leadership.

Calvin understands 16 as about members, but otherwise sees the section as about leaders. Of 16, he says "Having admonished the teachers as to their duty, he now addresses himself to the pupils—that they, too, may take heed to themselves. To the teachers he had said, “You are the master-builders of the house of God.” He now says to the people, “You are the temples of God. It is your part, therefore, to take care that you be not in any way defiled.” However in 17 he returns to understanding it as about the leaders: "The kind of profanation of which he now speaks, is, when men intrude themselves, so as to bear rule in the Church in the place of God."

I think it's very likely that the work mentioned in 13 is the work of other leaders in building the Church and thus that 17 is talking about people who destroy the Church, presumably through either heresy or tolerating immorality, since that seems to be main issue of the letter.

I don't object to applying 3:13 more broadly to how God judges believers. But the context is more specific.

I'd go with Jesus as my Good Shepherd rather than Calvin.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Paul may refer to himself as a wise masterbuilder by the grace of God but he is warning every believer about how each build on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In context, the consequence or the reward is by how each believer had built on that foundation so it's not about an entire church, the body of believers, but how each believer built on that foundation. Not every one will take heed to His words let alone Paul's words and so there will be consequences.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The consequence for the individual believer defiling the temple of God is physical death unless he or she repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes for that is when He will judge His House first.

 

[hedrick]

Your commentary author is trying to explain away the use of the exact same Greek words in 2 Tim. 2:20 by the same author (Paul) dealing with a similar topic, but does a very poor job of it.
He also has the potter reforming the pot in Ro. 9 after it is made and left the shop, while in Jer. 18 the clay is still on the wheel prior to leaving the shop and in 2 Tim. 2:20 the pot itself is changing itself.

The commentary is by Moo. His commentary is considered the best modern commentary from the traditional Reformed perspective.

However I find it interesting that he ultimately sees it as unclear whether Paul intends to say that the vessels of wrath were predestined that way by God or not:

"Much depends on our interpretation of the participle “prepared” that describes the vessels of wrath. For Paul does not tell us who has done the “preparing.” Many commentators argue that the parallels with vv. 17–18—where God “raises up” Pharaoh and hardens—and with v. 23—where the subject of “prepared beforehand” must be God—make clear that God is the agent of this “preparing.” The phrase “prepared for destruction” would then refer to God’s act of reprobation whereby he destines the vessels of wrath to eternal destruction. However, others argue that it is the difference between Paul’s description of the vessels of mercy in v. 23 and the vessels of wrath here that is significant. In contrast to the active participle “prepared beforehand” in v. 23, Paul here uses a middle/passive participle that does not clearly bring God into the picture. A decision is difficult, but we very slightly prefer to honor Paul’s choice of verb form and conclude that he has deliberately left open the question of who might be responsible for the “preparing.”"

I agree. But I would argue that chapter 11 tells us that any reprobation by God is temporary.

 

[Clare73]

The children of wrath by nature, Eph 2:3 were always at the same time vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, and they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:34

All mankind are by nature (born) children of wrath.
Some are (and always were to be) redeemed from that state by faith in Jesus Christ.

The vessels of wrath are the unredeemed children of wrath.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

But the vessels of wrath of Rom 9:22, they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Clare73]

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

Children of wrath or sons of disobedience are those who are not “in Christ”; who have not yet believed and therefore obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

However, Paul is warning the saints at Ephesus not to be partakers of God’s wrath along with the “sons of disobedience”; those who do not obey Christ.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

As we see from the scriptures, eternal salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.

Salvation is permanently given to those of saving faith, who then are sanctified by obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Since saving faith obeys, those who do not obey did not have a saving faith in the first place, there's was a counterfeit faith, "Lord, Lord"--Matthew 7:21-23. (Luke 8:13)

 

[Clare73]

Paul’s emphasis is on Gods grace.

That's God's grace to those who believe in his Son, not to those who reject his Son.

If you follow through Rom 11, he has temporarily allowed Israel to be ready for destruction, to provide time for Gentiles to come in. But
his purpose is that Israel will also be saved.

Actually, his response is that if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, Israel will be saved.
(Romans 11:23)
His response is that God's irrevocable gifts and his call (in election) are being fulfilled in a remnant (Romans 11:1-5, Romans 11:28), and have been for 2,000 years now (much longer than they were God's people all the way back to Canaan), and counting.

He does have sovereign right, but he uses that right to temporarily reject Israel so as to bring in the whole world. He doesn’t make pots for destruction. That would make him an incompetent potter. He makes them for different purposes, some not as exalted as they think.

The apostle Paul teaches that he makes pots for ignoble (dishonorable) use, which includes ignoble destruction. (Romans 9:18, Romans 9:22)

 

[hedrick]

Actually, his response is that if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, Israel will be saved.
(Romans 11:23)
His response is that God's irrevocable gifts and his call (in election) are being fulfilled in a remnant (Romans 11:1-5, Romans 11:28).
The apostle Paul teaches that he makes pots for ignoble (dishonorable) use, which includes ignoble destruction. (Romans 9:18, Romans 9:22)

"At the present time there is a remnant". Note the at the present time. As we go on through chap 11 we see that this isn't the end. In 11:26 we see that all of Israel will be saved. It's hard to avoid that in 28-32.

Because this whole thing is primarily about groups, this doesn't necessarily mean that all Jews who have ever lived will be saved. But Paul seems to envision that all Jews will come to faith.

That's why I object to the "if .. not when." Paul is clear that it's when all come to faith.

You could even read 28-32 as implying that God will even forgive the lack of faith, so universal faith isn't implied. But that doesn't seem consistent with the overall argument.

 

[testifier_uk]

Part of your discussion was 1 Corinthians 3, and at the beginning of this chapter is something regularly expressed, that where there is strife ( debates/disputes) it is a sign of being carnal ( non spiritual)...




1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?




In the same chapter, focus in nor deceiving yourselves.

Do that by seeing how all wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, and how the crafty wise are caught in their own craft, hence why chapters such as this are popular for people, they think they can be saved even if they did wrong...


1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.





Every mans work ( which we shall be judged by) shall be revealed by fire, to try ( to judge) every mans work, of what it was.




1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



More info is in 2 Thessalonians 1, how Jesus shall be revealed from haven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ( obeying the Gospel is important to know what to obey)

Again the Apostle shows how the ones hearing this message are not permanently saved, but need to understand they are prayed for/hpp[ed for, and they need to do the same we are saved by hope)


2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Clare73]

"At the present time there is a remnant". Note the at the present time. As we go on through chap 11 we see that this isn't the end. In 11:26 we see that
all of Israel will be saved. It's hard to avoid that in 28-32.

I find it harder to avoid what's in front of me. . .and that is for over 2,000 years only a remnant has been saved, and that their salvation is conditioned on belief (as it is with all mankind, thereby placing them on the same footing as the Gentiles), while they have persisted in unbelief. . .with the over-all outcome being only a remnant of all mankind has been saved since the cross.

Because this whole thing is primarily about groups, this doesn't necessarily mean that all Jews who have ever lived will be saved. But
Paul seems to envision that all Jews will come to faith.

What about the huge majority that have not for over 2,000 years? That's a lot of casualties.

That's why I object to the "if .. not when." Paul is clear that it's when all come to faith.

In objecting to "if," are you not objecting to Paul's own words?
Paul does not say "when," he says "if they do not persist in unbelief."
How can you call that "clear that it's when"?

He could have said "when," but he chose not to say it. . .wonder why?