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Chief end of man

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bling

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I've come to despise this sort of Vacation Bible School treacle, in which Christians attempt to read the mind of God as though using canned phrases like "God's glory" answers anything in a meaningful manner.

What does "God's glory" even mean? By any standard we can comprehend, the state of God's creation and His treatment of mankind is scarcely glorifying to Him. If God's nature is love and His desire is that all be saved, we would have to honestly say that what we observe is a spectacular failure. Even "Christianity" is a spectacular failure.

"God is very concerned about His glory" - WHAT??? Is something going to impair His glory? He's God - what is He concerned about?

God's transcendent justice and mercy allows supernaturally intelligent and evil beings to influence and deceive humans, holds humans accountable under penalty of eternal torment for the slightest transgression, and affords salvation via some mysterious mechanism that Christians bicker over like kindergarteners? Really?

We can, of course, adopt the approach of Calvinism, in which God's love, justice and mercy look nothing like what any rational person would describe as love, justice and mercy, and God looks no more worthy of worship than the worst sort of human dictator. But, again, this is just treacle - so utterly contrary to human reasoning and sensibilities that the best anyone can do is shrug and pretend to believe it.

The chief end of man is to carry on as best he can in the mess in which he finds himself while hoping and trusting that God is in fact loving, merciful and just even if things often don't look that way. To pretend to understand more is to try to make human sense of matters that the Book of Job clearly teaches are beyond human understanding.
It really is not that hard to understand, but it is hard to accept.

If you are talking about the “best I personally can” than that is worthless, but if you are saying: “The best the Holy Spirit can do working through me”, than is there a limit to what He can do?

The book of Job:



Here are some questions to get you thinking:



1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had a problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

Is God manipulating satan did have satan do what God will not do directly?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?



Look at this at least:



Job, He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.



1. This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.

2. First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans.

3. God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).

4. In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.

5. God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.

6. From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.

7. Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?

8. Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.

9. We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.

10. Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.

11. I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?

12. This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.

13. We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.

14. It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility they will not do.





At the end we see a changed Job:



1 Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;

no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'

Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,

things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;

I will question you,

and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you

but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself

and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.



Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, I know Lord (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better than anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Christ is not giving us an earthly story with an earthly application, which can be said about all parables. The earthly story has no practical use without the parallel spiritual kingdom meaning. The earthly story can be nonsensical as far as it goes without the under lying spiritual meaning. Yes! some "workers" in the kingdom will work longer here on earth than other workers, but we all, fairly and justly, get the exact same reward (eternal life in heaven with God), so does the earthly parable story Jesus told communicate how thing work in the kingdom?
Jesus explains this again in a parable of the worker and master in the field going home after a hard day.
If you for the rest of your life did everything perfectly (allowing Christ to work through you 24/7) you would have done the absolute minimum requirement. The fact that you do anything less, means you need God's forgiveness, mercy, grace and charity. God extends that forgiveness and makes us all equal.
Actually, some of us are much more equal than most of the rest of us. Most of the rest of us will never hear the name of Jesus Christ during their lifetime, much less the gospel. Thus, they are condemned eternally without the slightest recourse.
 
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bling

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Actually, some of us are much more equal than most of the rest of us. Most of the rest of us will never hear the name of Jesus Christ during their lifetime, much less the gospel. Thus, they are condemned eternally without the slightest recourse.
Please remind me the next time I go to worship, to boldly stand and thanking God, I am not like tax collectors, sinners and poor people hidden in the jungles.

You might want to read Ro. 2 before you start judging others and Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

You bring up a totally different topic here: do you believe unborn babies, those who never had the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love are all hell bound?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The chief end of man, as all other things, surely, is Christ.

The glory of Christ.

Which includes:

Becoming like Christ.
Being a servant, not only of God, but of one another and of all creation.
To love God and know God as Father as His children, as joint-heirs of His only-begotten Son.
To love our neighbor as our selves.
To bear the love and goodness of God through our humanity to all creation as the created image and likeness of God.
To reflect the worship of all creation back to God to His glory as kings and priests who bear the created image and likeness of God.

So that, indeed, Christ is the chief end of all things, preeminent in all things, all things were made by Him and for Him, He is the Head of the Church and her Foundation, in Whom also all things are being brought to fullness. Colossians 1:15-20

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bbbbbbb

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Please remind me the next time I go to worship, to boldly stand and thanking God, I am not like tax collectors, sinners and poor people hidden in the jungles.

You might want to read Ro. 2 before you start judging others and Matthew 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

You bring up a totally different topic here: do you believe unborn babies, those who never had the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love are all hell bound?
I simply stated the reality - a handful of people living on this earth will hear the name of Jesus Christ, hear the gospel, and believe it. The rest simply will not, through no fault of their own. God providentially saves his elect ones. To him goes all the glory.

Jesus Christ Himself stated the matter quite starkly in His parable of the broad road and the narrow path.

God will save whom he will save. There is no revelation in the Bible concerning the potential salvation of those individuals you mentioned. We simply do not know.
 
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bling

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I simply stated the reality - a handful of people living on this earth will hear the name of Jesus Christ, hear the gospel, and believe it. The rest simply will not, through no fault of their own. God providentially saves his elect ones. To him goes all the glory.

Jesus Christ Himself stated the matter quite starkly in His parable of the broad road and the narrow path.

God will save whom he will save. There is no revelation in the Bible concerning the potential salvation of those individuals you mentioned. We simply do not know.
I fully agree with: “There is no revelation in the Bible concerning the potential salvation of those individuals you mentioned. We simply do not know.”

What we do know is God’s Love, man’s objective, sin, Godly type Love and the law written on our hearts.

People go to hell, because they sinned and their sins were not forgiven, if they do not sin or their sins are forgiven, it would appear they do not go to hell, and this would be just, fair and reasonable.

The only issue with innocent people going to heaven is they would not have had the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love and thus would go to heaven with only a wonderful strong child for parent type love.

Yes, many more adult mature people will reject God’s charity than will humbly accept God’s charity/Love/mercy/forgiveness, but that is totally just and fair.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I fully agree with: “There is no revelation in the Bible concerning the potential salvation of those individuals you mentioned. We simply do not know.”

What we do know is God’s Love, man’s objective, sin, Godly type Love and the law written on our hearts.

People go to hell, because they sinned and their sins were not forgiven, if they do not sin or their sins are forgiven, it would appear they do not go to hell, and this would be just, fair and reasonable.

The only issue with innocent people going to heaven is they would not have had the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love and thus would go to heaven with only a wonderful strong child for parent type love.

Yes, many more adult mature people will reject God’s charity than will humbly accept God’s charity/Love/mercy/forgiveness, but that is totally just and fair.
I am glad that we are in agreement on most things. The niggling problem is that the Bible presents man not as inherently innocent and thereby capable of escaping hell on his own, but as inherently fallen and deserving of hell apart from the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ.
 
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bling

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I am glad that we are in agreement on most things. The niggling problem is that the Bible presents man not as inherently innocent and thereby capable of escaping hell on his own, but as inherently fallen and deserving of hell apart from the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ.
We start out innocent (sinless), but as we become mature adults we always sin. We only "escape hell" if we die before sinning. Do you see it as fair and just to start us out hell bound because of something Adam and Eve did?
 
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ViaCrucis

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We start out innocent (sinless), but as we become mature adults we always sin. We only "escape hell" if we die before sinning. Do you see it as fair and just to start us out hell bound because of something Adam and Eve did?

You say we "always sin" as we become mature adults--but why? Is it inevitable?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bling

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You say we "always sin" as we become mature adults--but why? Is it inevitable?

-CryptoLutheran
Yes, it is inevitable for all mature adults and for Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had the very best bodies (could live forever with the help from the tree of life), the very best genes, and were raised (programmed) to maturity by the very best parent and even though they had one way to sin, they sinned with the nature they had. Since they ate the fruit of knowledge, we all have knowledge of tons of ways to sin, so we sin quickly after reaching the age of accountability.
Our earthly objective is not to never ever sin, but to humbly accept God's charity in the form of forgiveness so we will automatically obtain Godly type Love (Luke 7 he that is forgiven much Loves much). With this Godly type Love we can than Love God (and secondly others) with all our heart, souls, mind and energy.
Sin than actually helps the nonbeliever in fulfilling his earthly objective.
 
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bbbbbbb

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We start out innocent (sinless), but as we become mature adults we always sin. We only "escape hell" if we die before sinning. Do you see it as fair and just to start us out hell bound because of something Adam and Eve did?
What basis do you have for assuming that all humans start out innocent, but inevitably sin? The Bible is surprisingly consistent in its presentation of man as a fallen being whose very nature is sinful. This reminds me of the classic question - How many times must a dog bark in order to become a dog?
 
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bling

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What basis do you have for assuming that all humans start out innocent, but inevitably sin? The Bible is surprisingly consistent in its presentation of man as a fallen being whose very nature is sinful. This reminds me of the classic question - How many times must a dog bark in order to become a dog?
The Bible does not say man’s nature changed from the nature Adam and Eve had and as our very best all human representatives they sinned with the nature they had. We did gain knowledge of Good and evil, but knowledge itself is not bad, but in this case gave us toms of ways to sin in contrast to Adam and Eve having only one way to sin and sinning.

All humans start out innocent because they did not sin yet. If they do not die early on, they will eventually sin.

They Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a fall.
 
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Hammster

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The Bible does not say man’s nature changed from the nature Adam and Eve had and as our very best all human representatives they sinned with the nature they had. We did gain knowledge of Good and evil, but knowledge itself is not bad, but in this case gave us toms of ways to sin in contrast to Adam and Eve having only one way to sin and sinning.

All humans start out innocent because they did not sin yet. If they do not die early on, they will eventually sin.

They Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a fall.
Do you believe in the doctrine of imputed righteousness?
 
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grasping the after wind

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There is nothing a Christian can do to glorify God. God is not glorified by us. He is intrinsically glorified. Our purpose is to reflect the glory that already belongs to God apart from anything we might do. The only way we are surely able to reflect that glory is by endeavoring to, as best as we are able, follow His command to Love God with all our hearts and minds and souls and love our neighbor as ourselves.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, it is inevitable for all mature adults and for Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had the very best bodies (could live forever with the help from the tree of life), the very best genes, and were raised (programmed) to maturity by the very best parent and even though they had one way to sin, they sinned with the nature they had. Since they ate the fruit of knowledge, we all have knowledge of tons of ways to sin, so we sin quickly after reaching the age of accountability.
Our earthly objective is not to never ever sin, but to humbly accept God's charity in the form of forgiveness so we will automatically obtain Godly type Love (Luke 7 he that is forgiven much Loves much). With this Godly type Love we can than Love God (and secondly others) with all our heart, souls, mind and energy.
Sin than actually helps the nonbeliever in fulfilling his earthly objective.

A couple questions: How does that knowledge lead to sin? How is that knowledge acquired? Are we born with it, or do we acquire it later as we age?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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God forgives their sins.

If you injure me, and I forgive you, are you therefore righteous? If I forgive you, but you still continue in the same way of action, are you righteous?

God forgives us, but that isn't what makes us righteous before Him. In the same way that if I forgive you, that doesn't mean you are righteous in relation to me.

Forgiveness demonstrates kindness, compassion, and grace on the part of the one that forgives, it does not demonstrate righteousness on the part of the one that is forgiven.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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