Chicken or egg question.

[OldWiseGuy]

Is drug use a product of the cartels, or are the cartels a product of drug use?
Does production or consumption drive the drug trade?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

If nobody consumed drugs there was no production - nobody produces something that is not consumed. If there was no consumption and therefore no production there would be no cartels.

 

[Ophiolite]

Is drug use a product of the cartels, or are the cartels a product of drug use?
Does production or consumption drive the drug trade?

Yes.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is drug use a product of the cartels, or are the cartels a product of drug use?
Does production or consumption drive the drug trade?

There's a third factor - legality. Cartels exist because the drug trade is a black market.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

There's a third factor - legality. Cartels exist because the drug trade is a black market.

Yeah that was about what I was going to say, but more succinct. The Cartels are in business because of the economics of it being illegal, they would have to switch to something else, or really over haul their business plan if it was legalized.

 

[ReesePiece23]

Humans were consuming ayahuasca hundreds of years ago (and psilocybin since more than less the dawn of man - probably).

People just like feeling good - and for as long as drugs make people FEEL good, people will want them. And for as long as people want them, people will sell them. And for as long as people sell them...

You get the idea.

Blame Adam, I always do.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Eh... I suppose it operates like any other business model.

After marijuana became legal in my state, it killed any illegal drug dealing in regards to the substance. No one sells it on the streets anymore because it's just cheaper and safer to just buy it in the stores.

As for the cartels themselves, they exist to exploit the system. As long as there is a system, there will be cartels.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Humans were consuming ayahuasca hundreds of years ago (and psilocybin since more than less the dawn of man - probably).

People just like feeling good - and for as long as drugs make people FEEL good, people will want them. And for as long as people want them, people will sell them. And for as long as people sell them...

You get the idea.

Blame Adam, I always do.

Hmmm... I think it's more than just a human problem. Apes, dolphins, ravens, and other more intelligent creatures have been observed trying to alter their mental states with substances.

Dolphins Seem to Use Toxic Pufferfish to Get High | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine

 

[DaisyDay]

If nobody consumed drugs there was no production - nobody produces something that is not consumed. If there was no consumption and therefore no production there would be no cartels.

Poop.

 

[ReesePiece23]

Hmmm... I think it's more than just a human problem. Apes, dolphins, ravens, and other more intelligent creatures have been observed trying to alter their mental states with substances.

Dolphins Seem to Use Toxic Pufferfish to Get High | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine

The comments section on that is just amazing. Lol.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Poop.

The Poop Cartel : Planet Money

I see you've never heard of the poop cartel...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, having thought about it for a moment (that's all it should take) how should we deal with the drug problem (answer only if you believe it is a problem).

Feel free to use the concept of "irreducible complexity".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There's a third factor - legality. Cartels exist because the drug trade is a black market.

Good point, however if all drugs now used were legal we would likely have a bigger addiction problem.

 

[SigurdReginson]

So, having thought about it for a moment (that's all it should take) how should we deal with the drug problem (answer only if you believe it is a problem).

Feel free to use the concept of "irreducible complexity".

I like the Scandinavian way of doing things. The problem is going to exist no matter what. So if that's the case, it's better for someone to shoot up in a controlled and monitored setting where there is no risk of overdose than to drive people underground where they can die in some back alley because they bought a bad batch of something from some guy who cut it with bleach.

Having everything legal and controlled also weakens criminal syndicates, since they just can't compete with the ease of use or the cheap prices that legalization creates. Not only that, but fewer people will start drug use to begin with because to even start would require a clinical setting: no more being introduced to the drug in a friend's living room.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Having everything legal and controlled also weakens criminal syndicates, since they just can't compete with the ease of use or the cheap prices that legalization creates. Not only that, but fewer people will start drug use to begin with because to even start would require a clinical setting: no more being introduced to the drug in a friend's living room.

But that keeps the door open for illegal drug traffic. Also legalization will be more costly as there is no competition, and, ongoing expensive medical services must be provided.

Government provided services have always been the most expensive. Drugs and drug treatment would be no exception. Government generally doesn't consider the 'human' cost of the drug epidemic (or they would quickly win the 'drug war'). It's usually presented as the economic cost, which is ironic as government is generally fail-safe economically, and, the drug problem is a perpetual job/tax revenue creation mill.

It's all about the Benjamin's.

 

[SigurdReginson]

But that keeps the door open for illegal drug traffic.

According to what? Legalizing marijuana in my state caused it's illegal sales to all but vanish. In countries where drugs have been legalized, like in Switzerland, it's also caused the diminishment of criminal activity by a ton.

How far is Switzerland in decriminalising drugs?

Our war against drugs has led to scores of dead people, overpopulated prisons (by far the worst in the entire world), and a thriving criminal underground scene. I think it's time for a change.

Also legalization will be more costly as there is no competition, and, ongoing expensive medical services must be provided.

Anything of value has a cost. Do we care about solving the problem, or not?

Right now, we are making the problem worse. It's just not working; and the definition of insanity is to just keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Government provided services have always been the most expensive.

America pays WAY more for their medical than any other first world with state run health... By far.

We should be emberassed.

Drugs and drug treatment would be no exception. Government generally doesn't consider the 'human' cost of the drug epidemic (or they would quickly win the 'drug war'). It's usually presented as the economic cost, which is ironic as government is generally fail-safe economically, and, the drug problem is a perpetual job/tax revenue creation mill.

It's all about the Benjamin's.

You're right there, but this is an American problem. Money has infiltrated our government, so now money is all that matters. Take a look outside our borsers, though... We did this to ourselves. Why don't they go into debt when they have a surprise medical bill? Why don't they go I to debt from school? Why are their crime rates lower, and their prisons drastically less populated than ours?

Doesn't something seem off to you? What are we doing differently compared to them?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

According to what? Legalizing marijuana in my state caused it's illegal sales to all but vanish. In countries where drugs have been legalized, like in Switzerland, it's also caused the diminishment of criminal activity by a ton.

Drug dealers just move their business to a state where drugs are illegal.

Our war against drugs has led to scores of dead people, overpopulated prisons (by far the worst in the entire world), and a thriving criminal underground scene. I think it's time for a change.

Americans have no stomach for the only obvious solution; involuntary hospitalization of addicts.

Anything of value has a cost. Do we care about solving the problem, or not?

Right now, we are making the problem worse. It's just not working; and the definition of insanity is to just keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

The 'War On Drugs' has become an industry, a 'golden goose'. Those in charge profit from it at the expense of the rest of us.

You're right there, but this is an American problem. Money has infiltrated our government, so now money is all that matters. Take a look outside our borsers, though... We did this to ourselves. Why don't they go into debt when they have a surprise medical bill? Why don't they go I to debt from school? Why are their crime rates lower, and their prisons drastically less populated than ours?

Doesn't something seem off to you? What are we doing differently compared to them?

My guess is that America is uniquely different from other countries. Instead of a 'melting pot' we're a 'mash-up'.

 

[jayem]

In the short term, decriminalization and supervised maintenance of drug dependent persons should reduce the illicit, dangerous, and socially destructive aspects of drug addiction.

But for the longer term, continued research into the neurophysiology of substance abuse is vital. Addiction is not simply a moral failing. It's a chronic brain disorder. We know that neural pathways in certain brain regions--particularly the basal ganglia, amygdala, and prefrontal cortex are altered. It's almost certain that dopamine, the neurotransmitter associated with a feeling of pleasure, is involved. So progress is being made. But to really get a handle on addiction, and treat it effectively, we have to understand it at a physiological level. The linked article is from 2016. It's fairly long and technical. But it's a good summation of our state of knowledge at that time.

THE NEUROBIOLOGY OF SUBSTANCE USE, MISUSE, AND ADDICTION - Facing Addiction in America - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[OldWiseGuy]

From the addicts themselves, "Your brain falls in love with it", and ,"It's a place so intensely euphoric that you want to be there all the time."

Neither science or law enforcement seems to grasp this.

Drugs: YOur brain falls in love with it - Bing video

 

[jayem]

From the addicts themselves, "Your brain falls in love with it", and ,"It's a place so intensely euphoric that you want to be there all the time."

Neither science or law enforcement seems to grasp this.

Drugs: YOur brain falls in love with it - Bing video

Science knows perfectly well that the brain falls in love with addictive substances. It’s the mechanics—the exact physiological alteration(s) of what’s going on in an addict’s brain that needs to be better understood.