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Cheating against the house.

yasic

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My opinion is based upon the type of cheating. I don't see counting cards in the same light as rigging machines, loading dice, or other illegal casino cheats.

I am asking about the illegal type of cheats.

Would you consider them to be immoral? If so, would you consider this to be as wrong, or less so, then stealing from a random person on the street?
 
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JadeTigress

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To be honest, I don't know the morality of it, but I really don't care. If I knew for sure that I wouldn't get caught, I'd take them for as much money as I could.

As for that being better or worse than stealing from a random person off the street, I'm not entirely sure. I would learn towards saying that it's not as bad. Yeah, it's still stealing, but the casino is going to make back whatever I stole, and then some, pretty quick.

Regardless, I wouldn't steal from a random person on the street.
 
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JustMeSee

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I am asking about the illegal type of cheats.

Would you consider them to be immoral? If so, would you consider this to be as wrong, or less so, then stealing from a random person on the street?
Yes, I consider most forms of cheating as stealing.
(BTW: It is my understanding that counting cards is illegal, but I don't see it as stealing.)
 
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Upisoft

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Let's say you found a method by which you can cheat at a casino game- A method that is illegal.

Would you consider it to be immoral to cheat a casino given how they are in the business of taking money from the less educated and less capable?
Hmm. Given the fact that I'll never enter a casino willfully I have to be there against my will. Therefore they have done something illegal against me. I'll cheat all the way out of there...
 
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yasic

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Yes, I consider most forms of cheating as stealing.
(BTW: It is my understanding that counting cards is illegal, but I don't see it as stealing.)

Using a mechanical tool to count cards is illegal, counting them in your mind if perfectly legal, and even if it were not, this would be near impossible to prove.
 
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Ar Cosc

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Using a mechanical tool to count cards is illegal, counting them in your mind if perfectly legal, and even if it were not, this would be near impossible to prove.

Yes, but casinos don't have to prove it. If you start winning too much money, you'll likely be kicked out. That's one of my major problems with them. They have no problem with you losing as much money as you like, to the point of ruining yourself, but if you get lucky, and go on a winning streak, you're out of there sharpish.
 
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revanneosl

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A casino is a business. They provide the entertainment of gambling for those that enjoy it. The odds are stacked in favor of the House because it is a business. If you cheat in order to beat those odds, then you have procured the entertainment they are selling without paying for it.

Cheating a casino is no different from stealing from any other company.
 
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JustMeSee

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Using a mechanical tool to count cards is illegal, counting them in your mind if perfectly legal, and even if it were not, this would be near impossible to prove.
Thanks for correcting me. I wasn't aware of the differences.
 
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Umaro

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A casino is a business. They provide the entertainment of gambling for those that enjoy it. The odds are stacked in favor of the House because it is a business. If you cheat in order to beat those odds, then you have procured the entertainment they are selling without paying for it.

Cheating a casino is no different from stealing from any other company.


Cheating by rigging a machine or the dice I would agree with you, but what about with counting cards and then getting kicked out like Ar Cosc said?

Casino's offer a simple model, "come bet on a game here, if you win you get the money, if we win we get the money." That falls apart when "you are winning because you understand statistics, we can kick you out" becomes acceptable. Just because you use probability in your head and win more often, they're suddenly changing the rules of the game. It would be like offering to pay someone if they won against a chess computer, then kicking them out when they started winning. It's dishonest business.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Let's say you found a method by which you can cheat at a casino game- A method that is illegal.

Would you consider it to be immoral to cheat a casino given how they are in the business of taking money from the less educated and less capable?

By illegal do you mean 'a way to win the game such that the Casino cannot come out on top that is a fair play' such as card counting? Go ahead, by all means.
 
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Umaro

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Counting cards in your head isn't cheating, and therefore isn't theft. But that's not what Yasic was asking about.

They'll still kick you out of their establishment though, which seems unethical on the side of the casino. It's their game, but they're preventing you from winning even though you are not cheating.
 
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eugler

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Let's say you found a method by which you can cheat at a casino game- A method that is illegal.

Would you consider it to be immoral to cheat a casino given how they are in the business of taking money from the less educated and less capable?

Interessting question. It generally seems to be less offensive to steal from a faceless corporation than from an actual person because you don't have to put a face on the person(s) you harmed. But from a moral point of view this is of course nonsense. A casino on the other hand is something different. The casino makes the rules for the game which are not fair towards both sides (the gambler and the casino). There is a reason the bank always wins in the end, luck has nothing to do with it.
So yeah, if I could be sure not to get caugth I would cheat them out of their last cent and sleep soundly ever after. I don't think it's immoral to play a player.
 
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Aradia

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Ok, let's clear up a few things:

First, as already mentioned, counting cards in your head is not illegal. Second, it's actually pretty easy to determine whether someone is counting cards or not. Third, a casino may or may not kick somebody out for winning "a lot" (which is rather subjective anyway). They don't want to lose business, after all. If they determine that you're playing with an advantage (whether through "cheating" or otherwise), they will likely kick you out, otherwise, they want to give you the opportunity to give them back their money.

"Cheating" can be a bit of a grey area when it comes to casino gambling. Some things are just plain illegal, like using mechanical means to gain any sort of advantage (magnets, dice-loading, computers, mirrors, etc). Some things are "clearly" not cheating because it's just mental acrobatics with otherwise freely available information (counting, tracking, etc). Some things are difficult to pin down, though. Hole carding is a grey area, because you're actively attempting to gain knowledge you aren't supposed to have -- but on the other hand, if the dealer's flashing from three miles away, and you happen to catch a glimpse, is that cheating? Using a Big Player is sort of another grey area, but it's nothing more than a strategy. So, just defining what is and is not "cheating" isn't necessarily easy. If we limit it to what's illegal, and not legal methods of advantage play (that will still get you kicked out if you're caught), then I'd say it's wrong. Most* casinos are on the up and up these days. It's heavily regulated, and they don't want to get caught cheating themselves. So it's not even a matter of "stealing from a thief" at this point. Every game has a built-in advantage for the house. Don't like it? Don't play. It's meant to be entertainment. If you want free entertainment, go for a walk and watch the sunset.

Bit of trivia: Counting is *legal* in Atlantic City. Not "legal", but LEGAL. As in, walk up to a table and you may very well find people talking openly about counting, what their count is, what type of counts and/or sidecounts they use, etc. But standard AC rules differ from standard Vegas rules, to help offset the advantage gained by counting. Hehe.

(*Some individual dealers, at small casinos, have been known to cheat in modern times -- and some have been silently caught by advantage players. I find it rather amusing.)

p.s., don't start counting cards just because you watched that one movie with those one guys playing that one game. You still won't understand. And you'll lose a lot of money in the process. This message brought to you by Advantage Gamblers Against Noobs.
 
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