Chasing shadows

[Aussie Pete]

Colossians 2:16 & 17 "Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ."

Hebrews 10:1 "For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves."

John 1:17 "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

John 7:19 "Has not Moses given you the Law? Yet not one of you keeps it. Why are you trying to kill Me?"

Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Laws save no one. The most obedient to the law were the Pharisees. Yet none of them kept the Law. It was not that they could not. God did not give them laws that were impossible. Yet the history of Israel proved that mankind will not obey God's commands. Rebellion is as much a part of man's nature as his desire to eat.

The answer is to rid humanity of the rebellion that causes them to rebel. Only Christ can do that, through His death on the cross. Mankind needs a new nature that is able to obey. Only Christ can grant that through His resurrection. In the "Sermon on the Mount", Lord Jesus tells us what God really wants for humanity. The Law is the shadow, the sermon on the mount the reality. Law basically is external. God looks at the heart.

Only the life of Christ within us is righteous, holy and pleasing to God. When we are cooperating with the leading in our spirit man, God is well pleased. He is not looking for us to perform. He has no expectations of us at all. We do well to lower our expectations of self to zero. We do even better to depend utterly on the Lord Jesus for all that we need and in all that we do.

 

[BobRyan]

Laws save no one.

everyone says that.

That's not where the differences lie.

The most obedient to the law were the Pharisees.

Totally untrue according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13
Totally untrue according to Paul in Romans 2
Totally untrue according to Paul in Gal 6:13

So you probably won't get a lot of agreement on that detail in this particular forum.

It was not that they could not. God did not give them laws that were impossible.

Paul says that the wicked "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-10

Rebellion is as much a part of man's nature as his desire to eat.

True - sinful nature.

The answer is to rid humanity of the rebellion that causes them to rebel. Only Christ can do that, through His death on the cross. Mankind needs a new nature that is able to obey.

True.

In Romans 8:4-11 it is the saints that obey and the wicked that cannot obey.

The Law is the shadow,

Only some Laws are shadows (predictive) such as Passover.

Other laws are prescriptive (they define what is sin and what is not) so for example "do not take God's name in vain" is not "a shadow" (it is not predictive) it is prescriptive an imperative that defines the line between obedience/righteousness vs rebellion/sin

Law basically is external.

Law is only external for the lost... the wicked.

For the saints the "Law is written on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34 under the Gospel "New Covenant"

God looks at the heart.

Only the life of Christ within us is righteous, holy and pleasing to God. When we are cooperating with the leading in our spirit man, God is well pleased.

True - but "taking God's name in vain" is still a sin no matter if you are a saint or not. It does not change that command. Salvation only changes your ability to keep it.

Notice the "be not deceived" statement in 1 Cor 6?
Notice the "do not be conceited but fear" statement in Romans 11?

What do those two examples say to you within the context of the POV you are presenting?

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 10:1 "For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves."

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. NKJV

The command to "Not take God's name in vain" is not a shadow of anything
Passover is a shadow - a predictive law as we see in 1 Cor 5.

 

[Aussie Pete]

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. NKJV

The command to "Not take God's name in vain" is not a shadow of anything
Passover is a shadow - a predictive law as we see in 1 Cor 5.

Your response illustrates my point precisely.

 

[BobRyan]

Your response illustrates my point precisely.

Thank you... I love Bible details and doctrine that is tested sola scriptura.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'd agree with you except in one respect. Your overemphasis on legalism is not scriptural.

 

[Religiot]

Laws save no one. The most obedient to the law were the Pharisees. Yet none of them kept the Law. It was not that they could not. God did not give them laws that were impossible. Yet the history of Israel proved that mankind will not obey God's commands. Rebellion is as much a part of man's nature as his desire to eat.

Of course they do! Wow! ...

The Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites! (Which means they advocated keeping the law, but in-fact did not.)

--You contradict yourself in the very next sentence! --You can't be the most obedient and then not keep the law. C'mon!

Don't you realize that grace only has meaning if there's a law?

Without the law, grace is meaningless.

Your understanding of Galatians is also erroneous, for the law was transferred from Levi to Christ, wherefore Christians are no longer under the old administration of the law, but the new administration, which is under Christ--All Christians are under Christ to obey Him, Hebrews 5:9.

If you don't obey the New Administrator of God's Eternal Law, then He will send you to Hell, period.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Of course they do! Wow! ...

The Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites! (Which means they advocated keeping the law, but in-fact did not.)

--You contradict yourself in the very next sentence! --You can't be the most obedient and then not keep the law. C'mon!

Don't you realize that grace only has meaning if there's a law?

Without the law, grace is meaningless.

Your understanding of Galatians is also erroneous, for the law was transferred from Levi to Christ, wherefore Christians are no longer under the old administration of the law, but the new administration, which is under Christ--All Christians are under Christ to obey Him, Hebrews 5:9.

If you don't obey the New Administrator of God's Eternal Law, then He will send you to Hell, period.

Your understanding of grace is screwy. I obey Christ. The law was given to lead us to Christ. For me, it's done its job. Christ is now my life. If He can foul up, so can I. If he can fail, so can I. The sinful nature I inherited from Adam is dead and buried. Grace is not the power to obey the law. The law is way less demanding than God's standard of perfection. Only Lord Jesus can fulfil that requirement. The law saves no one. It is only good to bring death. Grace is actually the life of Christ, living within the Christian. Check out Romans 5:10 if you don't believe me.

 

[Bob S]

Your understanding of grace is screwy. I obey Christ. The law was given to lead us to Christ.

Galatians 3 seems to have two parts. One is concerning the Gentile Galatians and part two switches to the Jews. In verse 13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,..., we see Paul referring to "US". The Galatians were never under the Law which Paul was under. He had to be referring to the Jews and himself. Paul goes on in verse 14, 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. "We" might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith means both Jew and Gentile now receive the Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus. Paul goes on in verse 23, once again referring to Jews to say, 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (KJV)
Remember, Gentiles were never under the Law, so when Paul finally gets to the verse 24 he tells us that the Jews used the Law to reveal the need of the Savior. Once Jews accepted Jesus they were no longer under the curse of the Law. Obviously when Paul called the Galatians foolish it was because they had turned away from the guidance of the gift of the Holy Spirit to be persuaded by the Jews to be put under the Law of the Jews.

All this ties in with all of the other verses explaining the fact that the new covenant does not require anyone to keep the ritual commands of the old covenant. Verses like Eph 2:15, Col 2:14-17, 2Cor3:6-11, Gal 5-6, 1Jn 3:19-24 and much of the book of Romans.

For me, it's done its job. Christ is now my life. If He can foul up, so can I. If he can fail, so can I. The sinful nature I inherited from Adam is dead and buried. Grace is not the power to obey the law. The law is way less demanding than God's standard of perfection. Only Lord Jesus can fulfil that requirement. The law saves no one. It is only good to bring death. Grace is actually the life of Christ, living within the Christian. Check out Romans 5:10 if you don't believe me.

Amen my friend.

 

[Religiot]

Your understanding of grace is screwy. I obey Christ. The law was given to lead us to Christ. For me, it's done its job. Christ is now my life. If He can foul up, so can I. If he can fail, so can I. The sinful nature I inherited from Adam is dead and buried. Grace is not the power to obey the law. The law is way less demanding than God's standard of perfection. Only Lord Jesus can fulfil that requirement. The law saves no one. It is only good to bring death. Grace is actually the life of Christ, living within the Christian. Check out Romans 5:10 if you don't believe me.

Where do find that Christ fouled up? Where do find that He failed? And how did you conclude from my response that grace was the power to obey the law?

Screwy? If you're response to my statement isn't screwy, then I don't know what is.

 

[eleos1954]

I'd agree with you except in one respect. Your overemphasis on legalism is not scriptural.

Was Jesus a legalist? Were all the apostles legalists?

1st Peter 2:21

Berean Study Bible
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps:

Romans 3

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

 

[BobRyan]

I'd agree with you except in one respect. Your overemphasis on legalism is not scriptural.

nope... I never say "let's emphasize legalism" ... no not even a little much less "overemphasize"

Details matter.

 

[Aussie Pete]

nope... I never say "let's emphasize legalism" ... no not even a little much less "overemphasize"

Details matter.

You don't say it, you do it.

 

[BobRyan]

I'd agree with you except in one respect. Your overemphasis on legalism is not scriptural.

nope... I never say "let's emphasize legalism" ... no not even a little much less "overemphasize"

Details matter.

You don't say it, you do it.

Simply accusing others... is not a form of exegesis, or Bible study - and I think we both know it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

nope... I never say "let's emphasize legalism" ... no not even a little much less "overemphasize"

Details matter.



Simply accusing others... is not a form of exegesis, or Bible study - and I think we both know it.

I'm just making an observation based on the subject matter that you discuss and the responses that you make to forum posts.

 

[BobRyan]

I'd agree with you except in one respect. Your overemphasis on legalism is not scriptural.

nope... I never say "let's emphasize legalism" ... no not even a little much less "overemphasize"

Details matter.

You don't say it, you do it.

Simply accusing others... is not a form of exegesis, or Bible study - and I think we both know it.

I'm just making an observation

creative euphemism there.