• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,050
1,802
60
New England
✟616,477.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Came across some interesting information on Charles Finney. Just wanted some thoughts from others on this man. I have heard his name in refernce to Edwards. I have been lead to belive that he and Edwards were completely different when the rubber hit the road.

As Charles Finney said, "The sinner has all natural abilities requesite to render perfect obedience to God."

You thoughts or other information on this man. I am reading his work online:

http://www.bibleteacher.org/finney.htm

BBAS
 
Jun 26, 2003
8,931
1,541
Visit site
✟303,123.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I read his book, Systematic Theology. Basically, he is a full blown Pelagian. His writings deny "original sin", and like your quote says, he taught that man has the natural abilty to obey God, in effect denying "total depravity".
He ran a lot of emotionally charged "revivals" in the Nineteenth century using what he called "New Measures". He would have someone come before a group and sit in what he called the "anxious seat", where they would be interogated until they would break down and convert to his style of christianity. Kind of reminds me of an episode of "Law and Order: Criminal Intent" where the detective likes to get in peoples faces and mock them to get them to confess.
His revivals would in effect, manufacture converts. He used some very elaborate rationalizations to say his was the work of God and not of man. Read his writings and judge for yourself.




just a fellowsip post here guys, nothing to see here, no debating going on
 
Upvote 0

Ken

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,137
47
62
North Central Indiana
Visit site
✟1,582.00
Faith
Calvinist
I completley agree boughtwithaprice... you can see his lawyer skills at work as he cross-examined those in the anxious seat.... a helpful article, IMHO, on Finney and his legacy (the Second Great Awagening) can be found at http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560462|CIID1415600,00.html
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,050
1,802
60
New England
✟616,477.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, Read some not all I get the idea, I will not be buying this set of books.

Why is this person so highly requarded by reformed thinkers? I have heard his name mentioned a number of times in various places for a number of years.

For His Glory Alone!

BBAS
 
Upvote 0

dldeskins

A man of many hats =|:)
Sep 15, 2003
45
23
68
Visit site
✟22,880.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
boughtwithaprice said:
His writings deny "original sin", and like your quote says, he taught that man has the natural abilty to obey God, in effect denying "total depravity".

It is true that he was not a calvinist, but to imply anything else is rediculous. Read his biography. No matter what his doctrine, he was a true man of God.

God Bless
 
Upvote 0

Hands&Feet

Active Member
Sep 27, 2003
360
62
70
USA
✟861.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
dldeskins said:
It is true that he was not a calvinist, but to imply anything else is rediculous. Read his biography. No matter what his doctrine, he was a true man of God.

God Bless
I agree fully. I have read nearly all of his books and, while we part ways on much of our theology, one cannot deny that God used him in powerful ways. His theology was partly developed no doubt from his legal bachground. But, his biography is one amazing story. One of the most profound aspects about his ministry was the incredible role in which prayer played in his success.
 
Upvote 0

pmarquette

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2003
1,045
34
74
Auburn , IL.
Visit site
✟23,938.00
Faith
Protestant
Charles Finney and Alexander Dowie were both lawyers.
Both converted when they saw " precident " biblical principles , like in legal books , it made sense [bible]

the " hot or anxious seat " is an old pentecostal tradition for new people , unrepentant sinners , those in need of prayer -- the focal point for the corporal anointing ...

Finney I belive ministered mainly in the NE USA , did quite a few revivals , and from what I have read he was a full blown evangalist , charismatic , man of God .....
 
Upvote 0

Hands&Feet

Active Member
Sep 27, 2003
360
62
70
USA
✟861.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Finney's revivals converted entire towns. I have heard numerous church leaders explain this away by the fact that he lived in a different age, but God is no different today. I still believe it is possible, but not likely by the methods we are using. Finney brought conviction to the hearts of the villagers. Today the tenency is toward taking it away.

Our ministry is often asked by pastors to refrain from saying anything that would make the parishoners uncomfortable when we are asked to speak at their churches. Of course, we don't oblige them. People want to do right by God. They want to be challenged. Church leaders fear losing control of their flock when revival threatens. I've seen it all too often. Finney faced the same fire from leadership, but God rewarded his passion for the unsaved.
I just wish that I could have experienced one of his revivals.
 
Upvote 0

dldeskins

A man of many hats =|:)
Sep 15, 2003
45
23
68
Visit site
✟22,880.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't remember all the details, but I believe that the reason that he was a congregationalist is because, at the time of his ordination, there was a conflict with the presbyterians.

Today, many calvinist take issue with Finney, claiming that he "stole the revival from the calvinist", referring to the second great awakening. God used him to lead the way. Just because his doctrine doesn't line up with Calvin, the calvinist (MacArthur, Sproul, etc) don't like him.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,050
1,802
60
New England
✟616,477.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hands & Dldeskins

His Pelagian views do not concern you? I'm not questioning his status with God I am concerned with some of doctrine he held.


BBAS
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,931
1,541
Visit site
✟303,123.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
dldeskins said:
Just because his doctrine doesn't line up with Calvin, the calvinist (MacArthur, Sproul, etc) don't like him.
Not only does he not line up with Calvin, but he opposes Arminian theology also, when he denies Original sin and teaches that man has the natural ability to obey God. Compare Finney's theology with the 3rd point of the Remonstrants:


3. That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good—nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through his Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God (John 15:5).






With all due respect to my P/R/E brethren, is it your contention that theology is unimportant, as long as a man is in prayer, behaves passionately, and attracts a large following?



 
Upvote 0

Ken

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,137
47
62
North Central Indiana
Visit site
✟1,582.00
Faith
Calvinist
Oh BBAS, he is NOT(!) well regarded by Reformed thinkers... the link that I gave to you above is to Reformed author and Professor Mike Horton's stern critique of Finney..... here is a section from it... but cut and paste the link into your browser, it will take you to the full article and it is well worth the time to read it.... anyway:

"
[font=geneva,arial,sans-serif]In an April, 1876, article in Bibliotheca Sacra, G. F. Wright criticized Charles Hodge's review of Finney's Systematic Theology for representing Finney as "putting the universe in the place of God," but Warfield agreed with Hodge that this is the logical conclusion of his theology.23 But was this rather severe indictment justified in the light of the evidence?[/font]

[font=geneva,arial,sans-serif]In the Lectures, Finney demonstrates an unwitting dependence upon the Newtonian metaphysics that conceived of the universe rather mechanically. Frequently, the author will refer to a universal "intelligence," "reason," "law," "government," or "principle," that is supreme and to which even God is subject. As far as the divine attributes are concerned, "All God's moral attributes are only so many attributes of love or of disinterested benevolence,"24 and such comments are pronounced without the slightest exegetical appeal, much unlike the Confession itself. In fact, one is impressed throughout the Lectures with the absence of proof texts, the collection reading like a volume of Blackstone's Law.[/font]

[font=geneva,arial,sans-serif]Nothing like a traditional method of systematic theology is attempted and the doctrine of God is strangely deduced from "self-evident principles" rather than from Scripture. The result is a deity whose features are virtually indistinguishable from Islam's "Allah." There is nothing specifically Christian about Finney's doctrine of God, much less is it an explicitly evangelical description.[/font]

[font=geneva,arial,sans-serif]Finney's anthropology suffers from a similar lack of exegesis and historical-theological reflection. Once again the theory is proved that those who naively and self-confidently presume to be independent of the sources (i.e., "mere men") are often the most easily beguiled by the subtleties of what they do not understand. Finney's anti-intellectualism and self-confidence notwithstanding, he was a mirror reflection of his age. Taylor, in The Quarterly Christian Spectator, June 1829, argued that children are not born into the world sinful, but rapidly acquire a self-indulgent disposition by practice and repetition until it becomes a bias. Assuming a Kantian categorical imperative, Finney follows the Taylorites to the conclusion that if God commands something, it must be possible. Edwards, of course, argued that this was acceptable if by "possible" one meant "naturally possible." There is nothing inherent in nature essentially that predisposes one to sin. Sin cannot be attributed to a defective faculty. Rather, human beings are "morally incapable" of doing that which lies within their natural ability. With that distinction denied, the New Haven Divinity embraced Kant's "ought implies can" and Finney took that to mean that if God commands absolute perfection, it must be attainable by human beings according to their present condition. Hodge responded to this aspect of Finney's work in the following manner: "It is merely a dictum of philosophers, not of common people that 'I ought, therefore I can.' Every unsophisticated heart and especially every heart burdened with a sense of sin says rather, 'I ought to be able, but I am not.""[/font]
 
Upvote 0

Ken

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,137
47
62
North Central Indiana
Visit site
✟1,582.00
Faith
Calvinist
dldeskins.... Calvinsts do not think that Finney "stole the revival", rather, he corrupted the gospel message and introduced a false form of evangelism... introducing the "anxious seat", relying on his human ability alone to "convert" people, even stating if people were not converted, it was his fault... and playing on people's emotion.... largely... we have Finney to thank for today's "sinner's prayer" and "decisional regeneration" approach to salvation.....
 
Upvote 0

dldeskins

A man of many hats =|:)
Sep 15, 2003
45
23
68
Visit site
✟22,880.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hmmmmm, you and I are completely different. You didn't pray the "sinner's prayer"? As for "decisional regeneration", I do not know what you are talking about.

We can have God to thank that he use a man like Finney for the Second Great Awakening. And calvinist do say that Finney "stole the revival"... I have been on many forums and in many chat rooms where they have said exactly that.
 
Upvote 0

Hands&Feet

Active Member
Sep 27, 2003
360
62
70
USA
✟861.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Are any of us above deception? Of course, Finney had problems with his theology, we all do. It is an ever learning process. I had a lot of problems with his Systematic Theology. In fact, it really cooled me on him for a while. But, the bottom line is that the masses were not converted to his theology, they were converted to Christ. His deeper theological perspectives were not the meat and potatoes of his revivals. He had a heart for God and he led probably more people to Christ that anyone before him.

As far as I am concerned, leading people to Christ by the 4 spiritual laws is one of the shallowest forms of evangelism ever introduced. There have been many shallow conversions thru it and the sinner's prayer. BUT!!! There have been many more brought into vibrant relationships with Jesus through these methods than probably anything else, as well.
Every generation has something that seems to work and that seems ridiculous years later.

Finney wasted more time going before the Presbyters. Who could blame him when he was seeing so much good happening? Thier objections to the revivals probably helped him to develop some of his questionable theology. He should have parted ways a lot sooner and not looked back.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.