Charismatic or non-cessationist

[RisingSpirit]

Pentecostals could call themselves charismatic, but the two tend to be used to describe different groups I think.

I've always thought charismatic are those that speak in Tongues. I guess not.

 

[Biblicist]

A Pentecostal is someone who attends a congregation or denomination such as the AOG which has always been historically Full Gospel. A Charismatic is a believer who attends a Full Gospel congregation within a denomination such as the Baptists, Presbyterians and Lutherans who are not historically Full Gospel.

To be defined as being Full Gospel, be it Pentecostal or Charismatic one would need to speak in tongues.

There is also a new category called neo-charismatics but they can be rather hard to define and they do not see praying in the Spirit as being a necessary requirement.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Actually the Question of "Initial evidence" (tongues) isn't a "New Category" at all. from the very beginning there were Charismatics who didn't "speak in tongues", but did "move in the gifts".

In in the World at present there's a growing number of PENTECOSTALS that don't teach "Tongues" as initial evidence.

I'm a Charismatic who's totally non-denominational - and a member and elected Deacon in an Assembly of God church. And I've spoken in tongues since 1973.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Actually the Question of "Initial evidence" (tongues) isn't a "New Category" at all. from the very beginning there were Charismatics who didn't "speak in tongues", but did "move in the gifts".

In in the World at present there's a growing number of PENTECOSTALS that don't teach "Tongues" as initial evidence.

I'm a Charismatic who's totally non-denominational - and a member and elected Deacon in an Assembly of God church. And I've spoken in tongues since 1973.

I'm still confused on the differences between the Charismatic and the Pentecostal.

 

[lismore]

I'm still confused on the differences between the Charismatic and the Pentecostal.

Pentecostal is a denomination or several demoninations like AOG, ELIM and Potter's House.

Charismatic is a movement with people from all denominations and none.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"differences between the Charismatic and the Pentecostal."

You really have to go back to the "Beginning" -

Pentecostalism started in 1900, as a segment of the Wesleyan Holiness paradigm and started to "atrophy" into "just another Legalistic/Clothesline holiness denomination" by the early '50s. Oh - we still were noisy, judgmental, and spoke in tongues, and all that, but to a large degree the "Dynamic life" of the thing had dried up.

And then in 1966, God came in like a tidal wave on the "High Churches", and Catholics and THEY began experiencing God "up front and personal" like the Pentecostals had in 1900. ANd they Spoke in tongues, and there were healings and miracles - but little or no "clothesline holiness" - AND we flowed together with any number of groups that the Pentecostals JUDGED to be Antichrists - Like the Catholics - which caused the Pentecostals to JUDGE the Charismatic Movement as "Errant" and to be rejected.

The Charismatics, on the other hand, visited the Pentecostal churches, but found them to be "Dead" (comparatively), and moved on - creating their OWN churches.

But like all Revivals, the "Charismatic Outpouring" ended in the late '70s, and the "Charismatic Movement" began.

And those of us who were part of it had to "do something" - either throw our lot in with the Charismatic churches, or re-integrate with the denominations we came out of.

Personally I went AWOL for about a decade. I was too liberal to re-integrate with the "Fundys"< and way to Fundamentalistic to integrate with the liberals. but by the early '90s I had gone back into the AoG, and I've been there ever since. I'm STILL a non-denominational CHarismatic, but a member in the AOG - which DOESN'T define me, but in general, I can live with their "Package", and ignore the areas of contention.

MANY Charismatics flowed into the Pentecostal churches, however, with the effect that the Pentecostal denominations got a LOT less "Legalistic", and MUCH more "Charismatic" in nature.

SO today - there's really NOT a lot of REAL difference between the Pentecostals and Charismatics idealistically in terms of their "belief sets".

Pentecostals DO tend to remain "pro-denominational" (although the trend is to eliminate the overt display of denominational logos), and Charismatics aren't too interested in denominationalizing in the "organizational" sense.

In the case of the AoG, since we have a HUGE missionary outreach program, the existence of a Denominational "clearing house" for support, and publishing makes a lot of sense. Charismatic operations, being independent, can't mount the same kind of corporate effort.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Pentecostal is a denomination or several demoninations like AOG, ELIM and Potter's House.

Charismatic is a movement with people from all denominations and none.

So the Tongue speaker is Charismatic within a Presbyterian, Catholic, Methodist church, right.

Ok, let me read "Let's start from the beginning" post above.

Be right back

 

[RisingSpirit]

"differences between the Charismatic and the Pentecostal."

You really have to go back to the "Beginning" -

Fantastic read. OK, I hear ya. Just more moderned new additions to the human languages. I see nothing new here. Could be the ancient Christian version of the Kundalini force, the Qigong empowerment and the Falun Dafa exercise, Reiki and tons of other Zenish mind altering rituals. They too have the same duplicate visually copy of what we see today in the Pentecostalism. Of course, I know most if not ALL Christians claim those things are of the the devil and shouldn't be touched. I know all that. No need to ban me. Not debating, here.

I don't believe your version of the beginning starts like what you posted.

Tell us the earlier version of the beginning. Spare us 5 pages of Bible quotes. A little later than that please.

 

[Biblicist]

RisingSpirit,

With regard to your comment to Bob Carrabio;
I don't believe your version of the beginning starts like what you posted.

Bob's comments were in my opinion pretty well spot on.

Just more moderned new additions to the human languages. I see nothing new here. Could be the ancient Christian version of the Kundalini force, the Qigong empowerment and the Falun Dafa exercise, Reiki and tons of other Zenish mind altering rituals. They too have the same duplicate visually copy of what we see today in the Pentecostalism.

Are you serious, you must have attended some pretty weird groups; were they Pentecostals or what? Never seen anything like this in my 36 years in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles; if I can ask, do you have a church background?

 

[RisingSpirit]

RisingSpirit,

With regard to your comment to Bob Carrabio;

I don't believe your version of the beginning starts like what you posted.

Bob's comments were in my opinion pretty well spot on.
Are you serious, you must have attended some pretty weird groups; were they Pentecostals or what? Never seen anything like this in my 36 years in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles; if I can ask, do you have a church background?

Many groups speak in Tongues, do Benny Hinn Knockdowns, and heal. It's not well known. It been around a lot longer than Bob's facts. I have many backgrounds. Took me 50 years to go through it all.

 

[Biblicist]

RisingSpirit (# 30),

I'm not sure if I understand your statement, but it seems that you are saying that Benny Hinn's ministry started sometime in the 1800's?

 

[RisingSpirit]

RisingSpirit (# 30),

I'm not sure if I understand your statement, but it seems that you are saying that Benny Hinn's ministry started sometime in the 1800's?

I got lost when everyone gave me different dates of certain Pentecostal church's beginnings. I think it goes back much earlier and wondering if there Tongues experiences in the Old Testament.

It is difficult to separate the west from the East but if you're serious about the truth, You'll find out. When folks tells me I can't mix but I found all denominations in a mix. The wise men were from far off.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And, of course you knew when you posted that I was speaking of the MAJOR INTRODUCTION of the Gifts back into the church in 1900, and again in 1966.

There have been instances of Spiritual outpourings in a Localized sense from the beginning of the church. There are reports of the "Knights Templar" speaking in tongues, there was Cane Ridge, there was Jonathan Edwards - who warned folks in his outside gatherings NOT to climb trees because the Holy Spirit might knock 'em out, and they'd fall. MOdern tongues by some accounts started in Scotland in the early 19th century.

BUT in a "widespread sense", it was 1900 when things really got rolling, and we both know it. In 2011 - it's estimated that world wide among NON-Catholic Christians, the chances are 1 in 2 that they'll be Charismatic, or pentecostal. And something like 15% of Catholics are "Full Gospel" also.

 

[RisingSpirit]

There are reports of the "Knights Templar" speaking in tongues, there was Cane Ridge, there was Jonathan Edwards - who warned folks in his outside gatherings NOT to climb trees because the Holy Spirit might knock 'em out, and they'd fall.

I can relate to Jonathan Edwards but I'm surprised that he spoke in Tongues. Tell me more about Jonathan Edwards and his experience.

 

[RisingSpirit]

And, of course you knew when you posted that I was speaking of the MAJOR INTRODUCTION of the Gifts back into the church in 1900, and again in 1966.

Of course, I knew.

 

[lismore]

MOdern tongues by some accounts started in Scotland in the early 19th century.

Yes there were a lot of revivals in Scotland in the 1800s and a lot of supernatural occurrences.

I believe you can trace in back further though, in the 1680s when the church was persecuted during the 'killing times', the people took to the hills in illegal prayer meetings called Conventicles. There was widespread gifts of the SPirit in those times.........'Prophet Peden' was one leader who used a mask to hide his identity at these meetings!

I believe Jack Deere does a DVD on that, I think I saw it once. Worth watching!

Thought you might like this link also, an intro to that time in Scotland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Peden

 

[lismore]

So the Tongue speaker is Charismatic within a Presbyterian, Catholic, Methodist church, right.

Yes, that's right!

There is a Charismatic wing within all those churches.

Pentecostal churches are denominations which teach in theory that everyone within them who has received the Spirit will speak in tongues and prophecy.

 

[JesusnamefollowerofChrist]

In Christian theology, Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased being practiced early on in Church history. The opposite of Cessationism is Continuationism. An account of the dispute between Cessationists and Continuationists is presented in the article Cessationism versus Continuationism.
Cessationists generally believe that the miraculous gifts were given only for the foundation of the Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. AD 33 (see Acts 2) and the fulfillment of God's purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament or the death of the last Apostle, i.e. John the Apostle. Its counterpart is Continuationism which believes that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit have been available for use by the church ever since Pentecost.

But pentecostal is not a doctrine as much as it is an expireance the same the 120 had in the upper room at pentecost

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I am Pentecostal in the sense that I am a member of an Assemblies of God church. But as I haven't yet personally experienced any of the gifts or charisms, I'll say I'm non-cessationist or continuationist. I believe they continue and are powerful when God chooses to bestow them, but I don't actively seek them or place any denominational kind of theological significance on them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I don't know that Jonathan Edwards ever spoke in tongues, but he did expect to see overt demonstrations of spiritual power.