Charismatic Chaos

zamar · Mar 7, 2002

Joe,

That was a stretch.

The sound that they heard and the manifestation that they say was 100% Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of God imersing the individual completely. It happened then and still happens today. The reason why we do not hear or see what is written in Acts is because the Holy Ghost has already come. He doesn't fall again, He is here.

Interesting theory though.

Z

Caedmon · Mar 7, 2002

If the Holy Spirit can descend in the image of a dove, then why can't it descend in the image of a lightning bolt?

zamar · Mar 7, 2002

Actually on the day of Pentecost, He decended and lit on them as a tongue of fire. That is not a lightning bolt. The sound was as a mighty wind. Not a thunder crack.

Why speculate?

Z

Caedmon · Mar 7, 2002

Why can't I use a little deconstructionist interpretation? LOL

But seriously.... You don't think that the author would interpret a lightning bolt as a "tongue of fire"? I mean, when lightning strikes a tree, what happens? It lights on fire and burns. As far as the "sound as a mighty wind" goes, well, it doesn't say it WAS a mighty wind; it says that it was AS a mighty wind, or LIKE a mighty wind. I think that it COULD have been thunder.

Scientifically, lightning would make a lot more sense, because it's a lot easier for a lightning bolt to strike through the sky than for a gigantic plume of fire. First of all, the lightning doesn't need a carbon-based fuel, and secondly, plumes of fire flow UP, not down. Now all this is not to say that God COULDN'T use fire, it's just that lightning makes more sense.

JohnR7 · Mar 7, 2002

If God does not have control over our tongue, then He does not have US. I think it has more to do with what we do not say, rather than what we do say.

James 3:8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

No man can control the tongue, only the Holy Spirit of God. One evidence that we have the Holy Spirit is that we do not grumble, complain, tear people down and so on. We use our tongue to worship, praise and give thanks onto God.

Iffy · Mar 7, 2002

Hi..
You guys are gradually running away from the topic more and more... : )

This has turned into a discussion about speaking in tongues - what it's about and should we ( I have outlined some issues about tongues ie intimacy and healing, deliverance ministry)

Can we have a look at the issues raise in the first post?

*Edited for clarity*

Droobie · Mar 7, 2002

Iffy,

Your original question about the Charasmatic Church movement was overshadowed in the same question by your questions on tongues. Tongues is a big topic in itself, and even one of the major differences between some denominations. For some denominations there is no such thing as people speaking in tongues. That was only for the Apostles at that time. Other denominations have speaking and praying in tongues as regular occurences. Yet other denominations believe that you are not truly saved until you can speak in tongues.

The Charasmatic Church is a fast moving, fast growing church that appeals to many as a more 'progressive' or modern day church. I belive that each denomination has it's own merits and appeals to different people. We all work to the same end but in different ways.

kimanne · Mar 7, 2002

I'm jumping in kind of late, but I do have some opinions on the charismatic church, but I don't know if they are valid or not.

Let me first say that I come from a very conservative, non-charismatic background, and married a man who grew up in one. My husband today will do backflips to stay as far away from charismatic as he can. His memories of church were all filled with fear of hell, and believing that all other denominations would go to hell because they did not love the Lord like his church did. Some of his family members, I feel, act very arrogantly when it comes to their relationship with God, and likes to draw attention to THEMSELVES in worshipping or praising, no matter where they are or how uncomfortable it might make others feel. And their actions do not display the true love of God, but create anger and dissension. In fact, many members of the family have nothing to do with one particular person because their words/actions are so very toxic. Yet this person always makes me feel a little beneath her in my faith. I've come to realize that their showy displays do not make my quiet faith small. And because I do not come a Charismatic background, I am suspect of speaking in tongues. I do not say this to offend - I am only being honest. And I've often wondered if many members of charismatic churches are judgemental of others salvation or only my husband's childhood church? And is fear of hell and showy displays common of all charismatic churches?

Please understand that all I know is based on what I've seen and my questions are sincere. ~kim

Iffy · Mar 7, 2002

Hi kimanne,
First off I want to explain something. When I was growing up in church -- I come from an Evangelical church - I knew about and believed in speaking in tongues as well as healing and deliverance ministry. The term 'charismatic' slowly crept into my social circle as I grew older and I would say (to ppl) that I too was 'charismatic' simply because I speak in tongues. That is what it meant to me.

Then I come to Australia to study and see that the 'charismatic' churches are a little different.A church is not just charismatic just because you speak in tongues. There was more. They were quite 'emotional' and from my observation, the Bible teaching was shallow. I say this from having attended three charismatic churches. Of course this doesn't mean much as I haven't been to that many charismatic churches and no church is perfect. But I have bought a book -Vinson Synan (sp? - I think that's his name)on the charismatic movement to know more. I also went to Apologetics Index, a Christian website and read about some things which sounded dodgy to my ears. So now I won't say I am 'charismatic' because I don't want the people I am talking to, to have preconceived notions derived from their impressions of a charismatic church. I think it will suffice to say that I am a child of God and I do believe in the Acts 2 experience.

In my opinion, some churches (trend in charismatic) place more importance on experience than on the word of God. Some churches I have attended also gave me the impression that one has to be happy 24/7. Sometimes the members seemed very shallow because of their focus on all the joy , happiness and blessings in one's relationship with God. I didn't get a sense that I was talking to 'real' people.

Because people in some charismatic churches tend to focus on the joy of their relationship with God, they may seem very full on but have not indeed studied God's Word in depth. They may not have a whole picture of what Christianity is. I have, in the past, not relied on God's Word but man's word as well as 'experiences' and 'feelings'. I think I too painted an incomplete picture of Christianity when witnessing to others.

So I would say that perhaps some of the people you have encountered in the charismatic church do not really know the Bible and its teachings. They are happy, zealous, 'full on', passionate but they do not know fully what being a Christian is. That is why they may be showy and 'judgmantel'. Even in non charismatic churches there are people like that. However, because charismatic churches are less somber, you would see a lot more 'showiness'.

------------
Matthew 11
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Christian - child of God most High but also, a servant of God, just like Jesus our 'big brother' was a servant.

No showiness there at all!

-------------

Anyways, all believers have the Holy Spirit in them to guide them and as zamar said about the gift of tongues:
The prayer language takes on many forms and changes from time to time. Just as a child's language changes and matures over time.
Like a language that matures over time, our spiritual growth too will mature over time. God will guide us and
Philippians 1
6.......he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. So, if it is God's will that you speak in tongues or exercise spiritual gifts, God will direct you on that path in due time. Aren't you glad that we can have confidence that God will carry to completion the work He has begun in us? I sure am! I know I can't do it on my own.

Praise God!

Iffy · Mar 7, 2002

Originally posted by Droobie
Iffy,

Your original question about the Charasmatic Church movement was overshadowed in the same question by your questions on tongues.

Iffy's questions on tongues:

Must a person be able to speak in tongue before he/she can
'move in the spirit' (cast out demons, prophesy, etc)

Should everyone speak in tongues?

Are people who don't pray in the spirit missing out on intimacy with God?

Hmm...

Well, I think it was 'should everyone speak in tongues' that sparked off the thread in the current direction. That question was merely a question leading to 'are people who don't pray in the spirit missing out on intimacy with God?' as I was organising my thoughts as I typed.

Blackwing · Mar 7, 2002

The devil can use other christians to spread his terror, even well meaning christians.

The bible said that beilevers cannot be demon possesed but the can be demonicaly influenced even without them knowing it.

That is why we must renounce bondages or the things that the enemy has a foothold in us.

bananaman · Mar 8, 2002

Luke 11:11-13
"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! "
A person is either adopted as a child of their father or not. If we don't have a true relationship, then counterfeit tongues are the least of our worries.If we do have a true relationship, then our father will sort it out so we don't get a "scorpion".

The scriptural foundation exists for pentecostal and charasmatic beliefs. However for many persons who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (Acts 1:5) it is an overwhelming and emotional experience.(Acts 10:46 sure sounds emotional) Jesus himself taught the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles taught speaking in tongues in the Bible. Many charasmatics are "common" people who have experienced G-d, but are not Bible scholars. Some people receive in a simple relational way with their "abba" father.
I have an observation about the common criticism that charasmatics are not very much into Bible study and more into experience. For many, the anti-Charasmatic viewpoint is supported solely on "bad" experiences and emotions on the part of the anti-charasmatics.Very very seldom is scripture even mentioned to support their anti-charasmatic position. Many will even admit it is scripural , but insist it was only for Bible times.
This is not to say that anti-charasmatic scholars don't exist.However most of the arguements against tongues and charasmatic behaviors ,I have heard, would apply equally well to the first century christians who spoke in tongues.
Also, all the "abuses" mentioned are not limited to tongues.Do people show off about dressing "modest" ,about their "clean" lifestyle? That they don't smoke or drink? Do people brag about how much they fast or pray or how "much" they serve the church?I have even seen people brag about their knowledge of the Bible and of their "pure" doctrine.I am really , really glad that G-d provides me with a choice to be proactive and not have to throw out all the good stuff in a reaction against something I don't like.
I could for instance , argue against fasting on a similar basis.Because it seems silly to me and has no obvious benefit. I mean how does not eating benefit anything spiritual?? Plus havent people used fasting to show off or taken it to harmful extremes? Am I more spiritual or closer to G-d by fasting?
I am thankful that G-d did not give me a rulebook to follow and then leave me alone to figure it out. For many Pentecostals, it is an experience with G-d.The fact that many pentecostals are immature or not well educated is because G-d is no respector of persons.Whosoever will come to G-d with a pure and humble heart. And ask in faith will receive a good gift from their father in heaven. not something evil.

Iffy · Mar 8, 2002

I am really , really glad that G-d provides me
with a choice to be proactive and not have to throw out all the good stuff in a
reaction against something I don't like.

I am thankful that G-d did not give me a rulebook to follow and then leave me
alone to figure it out. For many Pentecostals, it is an experience with G-d.The
fact that many pentecostals are immature or not well educated is because G-d is
no respector of persons.Whosoever will come to G-d with a pure and humble
heart.

Hi bananaman, we meet again! Thank you for a very wise and mature reply. I too want to be proactive instead of reactive.

Many times I forget that God doesn't see us the way we see ourselves and the way we see other people. God's perspective is so, so different! Also all human understanding is so very limited.

I have asked these questions before and I have been chastised by a brother. He said that I shouldn't care if something I read/heard of/ strikes me as untrue because God might use that same thing to speak to someone else. But my stubborn mind wanted to know if something was 'right' or 'wrong'. I wanted concrete answers for everything. Now that I think about it, questioning in such a direction is in vain and serves no purpose. We have had an interesting discussion so far! But I am just talking about my attitude in general. I really wanted some concrete answers for some things.

Like,
A Christian brother told me that people who don't speak in tongues are missing out on intimacy with God. The Devil lies to people saying that this gift is for Bible times. Because the Devil doesn't want us to be close to God.
He used the analogy of a marriage. Two people love each other but don't have good communication, don't talk a lot. They miss out. Do they love? Yes they still do but they miss the 'OOMPH' in the relationship. Likewise it is this way in the relationship between God and people who dismiss the gift of tongues as not for today.

So I speak in tongues, yes, and it has the oomph for me. And what I want to know is, is it really true that people miss out? Is it so important?
Why do I need to know that when I have the answer for myself? BECAUSE many of my friends do not speak in tongues and I want to know if they are missing out and I don't want them to miss out!

Also, I brought up the ministries of those people (here and in another thread) because there are false prophets around. The Bible asks us to test the spirits. Yet these people seem to be saying some things right but some things are quite controversial and dodgy! Again, why do I need to know? Because I need to know if something is 'right' or 'wrong'!

You know what, I think God just wants me to enjoy and concentrate on my relationship with Him. If it is His will for me to have answers to my pointless questions, He will provide them for me.

God bless,
Iffy

bananaman · Mar 8, 2002

Thank you Iffy. I don't think your questions are pointless or off-base. I just was attempting to paint the "big" picture in order to bring things into perspective. We are talking about practices which people are doing as part of a relationship. I do agree with your friend that it is important to understand the love relationship that is the context for the practices being discussed.
I'm not sure the analogy is not perfect though. Obviously your friend feels that it has enhanced their relationship with their Lord and they want that for everyone. It is only their experence though and not the scripture.I am glad for your friend that they have experienced knowing their savior more thru their charasmatic experiences.
My experience has been that the baptism of the Holy Spirit enhanced my relationship with the Lord but in a small way in comparison to the revelation of my "Abba" father's love. While spending time in His sweet presence in worship and prayer. Just listening and taking time to get to know Him.G-d will only go as deep as we are willing to let Him go. For many people , suffering allows their "walls" to crumble and allows them to experience G-d in a more intimate way.
I have spent considerable time in Pentecostal churches where many were distant from G-d. Intimacy with G-d is not acheived thru tongues or the gifts of the Spirit.It can help to build a deeper connection. But G-d is so very very deep.To know the depths of his love.I only get glimpses that leave me desperate for more intimacy with Him.
Never forget that opinions and experiences whether for or against are not scripture. 1Corinthians 13 speaks to the point of love being the main focus. Not even faith and hope are on the same level as love.Things like fasting, prayer, and tongues are all biblical and worthy pursuits. But it is always important to remember that love is the chief pursuit and the context for all the rest.
The Apostle Paul , who was about as Charasmatic as they get. Visions, tongues, miracles, etc. talked about the importance of spiritual gifts.But when he talked about intimacy with Jesus, he talked about love and fellowship.He talked about the fellowship of his suffering.
I'm sure your friend was only trying to communicate how awesome the overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit is and not to put G-d in a box. My issue with Pentecostals has been that they sometimes think they have arrived. And they lose their desperation for G-d.They also run the same risk as any church in making 2nd and third generation "converts" who have traditions that mimic but are not the real experience.
G-d is no respector of persons and he desires us to not be lukewarm but rather on fire and desperate for our "first love".Whether Charasmatic or non-charasmatic, G-d will not turn aside a person who seeks with all their heart to be intimate with Him. If G-d "zaps" you as the pentecostals like to say. Then enjoy His gift. But don't strive for the gifts. rather strive for the G-d who is behind the gifts.

bananaman · Mar 8, 2002

Originally posted by Iffy
What are your views of the charismatic church?

Must a person be able to speak in tongue before he/she can
'move in the spirit' (cast out demons, prophesy, etc)

My understanding of this issue within Pentecostal circles is that there is debate over two issues here.
Number one is the question of whether tongues is a neccesary proof or evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Acts ,chapter 2, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:7 are all given as support of this view.
Pentecostals who believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit can take place without tongues are of course aware of these verses , but argue that while it was the pattern in Acts, it does not always have to be the case and is not directly stated as doctrine.
The second issue is whether the baptism of the Holy Spirit is neccesary for "moving in the Spirit". I have to admit on this point that it seems to be more pentecostal/charasmatic tradition that teachs this. I have not heard any scriptural support of this. In my experience , it is a very commonly held belief though among Pentecostals that a person without the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be at the very least at a disadvantage in these areas.
Personally, I would have to see something much more direct in the scripture in order to place a limitation on what G-d can do thru a believer.The disciples did cast out demons before the day of pentecost.

bananaman · Mar 8, 2002

Originally posted by Iffy

Should everyone speak in tongues?

1Corinthians 14:5 says " I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues.."

Here , the apostle Paul indicates that speaking in tongues is a good thing. But not good for every purpose. Thank G-d for maturity and balance.

1Corinthians 14:18,19. says " I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But -IN THE CHURCH- I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Notice the words "in the church". The purpose of speaking in the church is to edify the listeners.

1Corinthians 14;4 says " He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

Pentecostals teach that there is a difference between a personal prayer language which should be experienced by all. And the public tongues and interpretaion that takes place in the church for only some.I'm not sure if that is just another Pentecostal tradition or if it has some scriptural support.
I have to admit that I was not paying attention closely during the instruction class at my church that day.I suspect since I have not heard much scriptural support in years of attending that it is indirectly supported at best.
The Bible seems to teach that tongues is a good thing. But that there are other gifts that are more useful for edification in the church.There is a verse in 1Corinthians 14:39 which says " do not forbid speaking in tongues"

zamar · Mar 8, 2002

One thing that we need to remember. The Majority of the New Testament was written by people who spoke in other tongues. It is written to a people who spoke in other tongues.

Is the emphasis on the tongues? No it is on the power to be a witness to a lost and dying world.

Z

Caedmon · Mar 8, 2002

"Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues" - 1 Corinthians 14:5, NASB

Ok, what Paul is saying here is not that everyone should speak in tongues, but he WISHED that everyone spoke in tongues; and I do believe that he also said that he wished that every man would not marry.

Didaskomenos · Mar 8, 2002

Z

I would really like to know what you were studying when you made that discovery. It is in fact a valid gift of God and to brush it aside is the same as saying the healing isn't for today.

I didn't say it wasn't for today, I just said that every time everyone (even a well-meaning Christian) produces nonsense it is not necessarily a heavenly language. I know mine wasn't, and I was as well-meaning as the next guy. To deny a counterfeit is naive and foolhardy.

bananaman · Mar 8, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Z

I didn't say it wasn't for today, I just said that every time everyone (even a well-meaning Christian) produces nonsense is it a heavenly language. I know mine wasn't, and I was as well-meaning as the next guy. To deny a counterfeit is naive and foolhardy.

Having spent time in pentecostal circles, I have to agree that there are times when the "peer" pressure gets to people, espeacially 2nd and 3rd generation Pentecostals.There are many well meaning persons who try to mimic what they think is expected or what they want but don't have.
It is not always easy to wait on G-d and sometimes we all can get into striving when something we are praying for is not happening.

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