Charismatic Chaos

Didaskomenos · Mar 6, 2002

But beware, guys, not every time you apparently hear someone speak in tongues is it anything but someone relaxing him/herself and issuing random or repetitive noises. I had what I initially considered a valid experience, but by prayer and study I've since come to discard the belief that it was a divine language.

This is not to say that no one ever has a true experience. I just think it's more rare than we like to believe.

zamar · Mar 6, 2002

Well. Speaking in other tongues is not a human language. It isn't a language that is produced in your mind, It originates from your spirit. You can be thinking about a baseball game and pray in tongues.

The prayer language takes on many forms and changes from time to time. Just as a child's language changes and matures over time.

Please don't confuse a gift of God with something that is natural.

Z

zamar · Mar 6, 2002

Didakomenos,
I would really like to know what you were studying when you made that discovery. It is in fact a valid gift of God and to brush it aside is the same as saying the healing isn't for today.

Z

ZiSunka · Mar 6, 2002

All I can tell you is, my neighbor was praying in tongues one day and I asked her to repeat what she had just said. She couldn't. She didn't remember what sounds she had just made and ended up changing the pattern of sounds altogether. She said it WAS the same thing and I just wasn't listening. Furthermore, her prayers don't seem anymore effective or powerful than my own, and I pray in English.

If it were really language she was speaking, and if she understood what she was saying, she would have been able to repeat it to me.

To say that God answers prayers better when they are prayed in tongues is to say that the answer doesn't depend on God's will for us, but on what WE do. If we perform the ritual correctly, God will shine on us, but if we don't try the ritual, God will not bless us as well. I don't know what your Bible says, but mine says that God blesses whomever He chooses, and that it is not based on the things we do to get His attention at all!

Hervey · Mar 6, 2002

Lambslove:

First of all, one who speaks in tongues is not suppose to know what they are speaking , while speaking in a tongue.

Tongues is a sign unto those who believe not.

All of this information can be found in I Corinthians chapter 14.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Hervey · Mar 6, 2002

Z

Tongues are of men or of angels - I Corinth. 13:1 - Acts 2:7 & 8

Love IN Christ - Hervey

zamar · Mar 6, 2002

Lambslove,
She couldn't repeat what she said because she did not form the words in her mind. They rose up out of her spirit. God doesn't answer prayers that are spoke in other tongues just because they were prayed "in the spirit"

A prayer prayed "in spirit" is a selfless prayer that is the perfect will of God in that situation. (Romans chap 6 )

It is not tainted with man's ideas or plans but is the plan and purpose of God.

Z

lindalou40 · Mar 6, 2002

Praying in tongues isn't necessarily about praying better. It is more about edifying oneself. Zamar is absolutely correct when he said it arises up out of your "spirit" and not mind.

But to stir up the pot just a bit. I personally believe that Satan has a counterfeit "gift" of tongues ..there seems to be counterfeit healings, and other "giftings" of the spirit.

It wouldn't surprise me in eternity to learn that there have been quite a few wolves in the charismatic (and other) churches.

Let me be clear, I am not attacking charismatics as a whole, not at all.

Linda

tericl2 · Mar 6, 2002

Praying in tongues isn't necessarily about praying better. It is more about edifying oneself. Zamar is absolutely correct when he said it arises up out of your "spirit" and not mind.

Exactly.

It wouldn't surprise me in eternity to learn that there have been quite a few wolves in the charismatic (and other) churches.

Also exactly. I would like to comment (just to deflect too much blame being laid at the doorstep of "charismatics") that there are many other churches and/or teachers out there that are just as bad or worse than any "bad" charismatic teachers.

One example I can think of, that affected me personally when I was younger, is legalism. This is just as bad, if not worse, than the extreme WOF teachers. Both are at the extreme of their respective beliefs.

A quick comment on WOF...to get everything we ask for we must be in God's will and the petition must be in God's will. Paul himself asked for the "thorn" to be removed from his flesh (noone knows for sure what exactly that was) but God told him that it wasn't going to happen. That He (God) would be glorified in Paul's weakness. Another example is when Jesus asked to not have to "partake of the cup", that being the crucifixion. Again, he still had to suffer that. In all things, may God's will be done and not ours. I would like to say, though, that there is power in the spoken word. Just probably not as much as some would like us to believe.

Just to be fair, a quick word on legalism. This is when pastors, teachers, or churches focus too much, almost entirely, on the "thou shalt nots", almost to the point of ignoring the gifts, blessings, and joy we have in Christ. It is very burdensome and destructive, especially to new believers. Not that we don't have rules to follow, but the compliance to these "rules" should naturally flow from a personal and real relationship with Christ. If we make our purpose to "study to show ourselves approved" and to become more like Christ, who sacrificed himself for us, then we will WANT to folow His ways. There will always be a battle with the flesh but through the LOVE and SANCTIFICATION of Christ we will overcome.

Love in Christ

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove

Actually, I feel more intimate with God when I don't try to "speak in tongues," for two reasons. I feel less foolish and uncomfortable when not trying to make up a new language, and second, I believe that the Lord understands me just fine when I speak English to Him. I'm pretty sure He understands English.

Hi lambslove, I am just replying as I read the posts. I wonder if this has turned out to be a discussion on speaking in tongues...
Well for me personally, I don't feel foolish/uncomfortable and I don't feel as if I am making up a new language. When I first received the gift, I was told that you have to 'practise' it. Initially it was very different to me and I might have felt uncomfortable but I don't remember.

Originally posted by lambslove

My friends who pray in tongues say that making up the sounds in their heads distracts them from the message they are trying to get across to God and pretty soon making the sounds becomes more important than the content of the prayer. They say they usually have to repeat their prayer time in English so they cna keep on track. Many of them say that speaking in tongues is their worship time because they get the emotional high from it, but their pray time isn't productive unless the stick to English.

When I pray in tongues, my mind is fruitful..I am thinking my thoughts and in fact, I do not get distracted. I think if one is not edified praying in tongues, then one should not do it until after much prayer and careful consideration.
I don't get an 'emotional high' from it. I think both (praying in tongues as well as human langauges)can be equally productive. I speak a few languages. Sometimes I pray in Malay when English fails me. Then when human langauge fails me, I pray in my spirit. Personally, I am quite...against 'emotional high' Because an emphasis on emotional high can easily distract a person from God.

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
Apparently. I have friends that are linguist who have listened to me praying in tongues and they tell me that my sounds aren't any known human language. They have told me that it is rare for "speaking in tongues" to be a known human language. In fact, most of the time the tongue-speaker can't even repeat what they said a minute ago, the sounds get all changed! Sometimes the tongue-speaker will even change what they claimed a certain sound pattern meant!

Ack! There are different types of tongue as mentioned by psalms22.3 earlier. There is the type for personal edification and there is a type meant for the church that needs interpretation. Then there is the type where one is actually speaking a human language that before, one couldn't speak. My teacher in high school's Christian Fellowship suddenly started speaking in Tamil when before she had zero knowledge of that language.

Acts 2
4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

I only know about speaking in tongues for my own edification. I know that I am not making it up. I also know that I can't analysis it nor do I break it down because I am concentrating on God at that time, and hence my mind is not making up sounds or analysing the sounds.

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by zamar
It isn't a language that is produced in your mind, It originates from your spirit.

The prayer language takes on many forms and changes from time to time. Just as a child's language changes and matures over time.

Please don't confuse a gift of God with something that is natural.

Z

Thanks for your post. It cleared things up. So it would seem that this thread has turned into one about speaking in tongues....

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
All I can tell you is, my neighbor was praying in tongues one day and I asked her to repeat what she had just said. She couldn't. She didn't remember what sounds she had just made and ended up changing the pattern of sounds altogether. She said it WAS the same thing and I just wasn't listening. Furthermore, her prayers don't seem anymore effective or powerful than my own, and I pray in English.

She probably couldn't repeat it because she was 'led by the Spirit' at that time. Praying in tongues isn't something that we can really manipulate/control with our human mind.
I suppose it is different because when we pray in tongues, we endeavour to shed all our human limitations (mind/heart/body) and tune in to God's spirit. I hope what I am saying doesn't creep you out or confuse you. When I pray in tongues sometimes...I'm like..God I don't trust my words, I don't trust my heart and I don't have the strength to pray to you but I know that I needyou even more so I am communing with you in my Spirit.
Because God you know my heart, my mind, my limitations and you know what is Your will for me.

Originally posted by lambslove

If it were really language she was speaking, and if she understood what she was saying, she would have been able to repeat it to me.

It is a spiritual language. If it were a human language, she could. However even if she were speaking Tamil and she had no knowledge of Tamil before, I don't think she could have recalled sufficiently to repeat it all to you at the time you asked her to.

Originally posted by lambslove

To say that God answers prayers better when they are prayed in tongues is to say that the answer doesn't depend on God's will for us, but on what WE do.

lambslove, I liked your post because it is very genuine and comes from your heart. All I can say is..I think there are many things that us human beings know imperfectly, as in we don't know the whole part. But as God leads us, we will know more. Concerning the above, look up Dutch Sheets' Intercessory Prayer He asks a lot of questions about Prayer and tries to answer them truthfully and in a balanced way. If he doesn't know, he admits he doesn't know but in his book, he quests for answers and depends on God to lead him in his ministry. I haven't finished reading his book but a few of my friends have (both charismatic and non-charismatic) and they all think the book is GREAT! : )

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by zamar
A prayer prayed "in spirit" is a selfless prayer that is the perfect will of God in that situation. (Romans chap 6 )

Z

I guess I should have read all the posts before replying! zamar, you answer correctly and concisely. Praise God!

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by tericl2

I would like to comment (just to deflect too much blame being laid at the doorstep of "charismatics") that there are many other churches and/or teachers out there that are just as bad or worse than any "bad" charismatic teachers.

One example I can think of, that affected me personally when I was younger, is legalism. This is just as bad, if not worse, than the extreme WOF teachers. Both are at the extreme of their respective beliefs.
B]

Thanks for a balanced viewpoint, tericl2!

Iffy · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by lindalou40
Praying in tongues isn't necessarily about praying better. It is more about edifying oneself.

But lindalou, do you agree that praying in tongues has some kind of power? I always thought so. Just like there is power in the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus, the demons flee! When we pray in tongues, I suppose we ask for intervention from God without knowing it...hence the instances when after praying in the spirit, I felt darkness
disappeared.

Originally posted by lindalou40

But to stir up the pot just a bit. I personally believe that Satan has a counterfeit "gift" of tongues ..there seems to be counterfeit healings, and other "giftings" of the spirit.

Hmmm..interesting! Satan's power is limited though. One good thing about praying in tongues is, Satan can't understand. What is Satan's counterfiet 'gift' of tongues?

Originally posted by lindalou40

It wouldn't surprise me in eternity to learn that there have been quite a few wolves in the charismatic (and other) churches.

Me too.

Blackwing · Mar 7, 2002

Sometimes what God gave to us the enemy might and will abuse many times.

There was once a church that my friend attended and in one part of the service a member began speaking in tounges. All thought that it was from God but then another visitor understood the language he was saying and cried out:"that person is blaspheming God because I understand him(forgot the language)
All things can be corrupted by the enemy and we must always test the spirit.

Iffy · Mar 7, 2002

Originally posted by Blackwing
Sometimes what God gave to us the enemy might and will abuse many times.

There was once a church that my friend attended and in one part of the service a member began speaking in tounges. All thought that it was from God but then another visitor understood the language he was saying and cried out:"that person is blaspheming God because I understand him(forgot the language)
All things can be corrupted by the enemy and we must always test the spirit.

Can the enemy so use a Christian like that? I know that Christians cannot be possessed by demons. But can the enemy use a Christian to speak in a language that blasphemes God??????

zamar · Mar 7, 2002

I know alot of people who are not saved and are serving the devil. Ya know, none of them has ever spoken a single word in other tongues.

Just like anything else, there are abuses. People are fleshly and they do fleshly things. Have people been disruptive with a word in other tongues? sure they have. Did they intend to do that? I don't really know. I do know that it is a gift from God and that if God offers gifts to me, I'll take them!!
Great discussion!!

Z

Caedmon · Mar 7, 2002

Hey what about this.... I know it's a bit unorthodox, but hear me out and comment....

Speaking in the "tongues of angels/men" could be a specialized telepathy!!! Think about what happened at Pentecost.... "tongues of fire" that came down onto the disciples could have been peals of lightning, the "sound like a rushing wind" could have been thunder, and the brain chemistry of the disciples could have been temporarily alterred, allowing them to communicate mentally with other people without having to use their language! To me that sounds like something God would do, bypass language and go straight to the mind and heart. Maybe the sounds created when somebody speaks in tongues of angels IS just gibberish, but the real message is sent with the heart, mind, and spirit.... sorta like, I dunno.... encryption.... LOL

Ok, so it's a bit far-fetched.... LOL

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