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and yet that is the foundation of what the pre-trib rapture is; an escape from suffering.
You keep saying this.[pre-trib is based on a desire to escape suffering]
the church meets the Lord in the air,
does a u-turn, and comes back with him to the earth (no time in New Jerusalem for the marriage supper as you posited earlier)
where the Sheep & Goad judgement commences and those righteous sheep enter the earthly millennium.
So here's the question - if those sheep are righteous, why aren't they raptured?
(3) the righteous that aren't righteous enough to be raptured, but aren't wicked enough to be destroyed. What is the scriptural basis for this third group?
That is not possible.Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Which will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing he has but a little time left. The time/times/half time.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Why would you say there's no time?
This is a parable meant to illustrate the qualities God is looking for.
This doesn't make sense from a post-trib point of view; all God's people, dead and living, are raptured at the 7th Trumpet, "immediately after the tribulation of those days". This 3rd category you've created demonstrates that you do not understand post-trib thinking.
Both pre-trib and post-trib are really very easy to understand; one (pre-trib) is an escape from suffering; the other (post-trib) requires Christians to endure hardness
Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about it being the judgment of the Gentiles? And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?You see my point? The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates both saved and unsaved are still in physical bodies. This isn't possible if the rapture takes place at the Second Coming.
Isaiah 65:17-25 has to do with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. That occurs after the thousands years and after the judgment (Rev 21:1-4).It illustrates you don't understand the need for there to be saved left in natural bodies after the Lords return. It isn't just the judgement of the nations that requires it, but Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25. Of course you can turn those into parables too if you need.
How is a gathering of the elect from "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" not a description of the rapture?"immediately after the tribulation of those days" is a quote from Matthew 24 and there's no rapture mentioned there. You won't find the rapture mentioned in any of the verses that speak of the second coming because they're separate events.
Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about it being the judgment of the Gentiles? And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?
And where does it say anything about both saved and unsaved still being in their mortal physical bodies?
Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the day of judgment for all mankind. There is only one day of judgment and all people from all-time will be judged on that day (all will either be condemned to the lake of fire or rewarded with inheritance of the eternal new heavens and new earth).
How is a gathering of the elect from "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" not a description of the rapture?
The post-trib, amillennialist view has no such problems as you describe here.@John Helpher here's a question for you. I'll define post-trib rapture belief in its most typical form - the church meets the Lord in the air, does a u-turn, and comes back with him to the earth (no time in New Jerusalem for the marriage supper as you posited earlier) where the Sheep & Goad judgement commences and those righteous sheep enter the earthly millennium. So here's the question - if those sheep are righteous, why aren't they raptured? The post-trib view has to create a third category of people that isn't scriptural - (1) the righteous that get raptured, (2) the wicked, and (3) the righteous that aren't righteous enough to be raptured, but aren't wicked enough to be destroyed. What is the scriptural basis for this third group?
The post-trib, amillennialist view has no such problems as you describe here.
Tribulation and wrath are two different issues. The Revelation separates them into two different categories; the Great Tribulation is described by 7 trumpets whereas the wrath is described with 7 bowls.
So, post-trib means after the tribulation. Then the wrath.
The bowls of God's wrath are in the time/times/half time period that Satan will have left on this earth.That is not possible.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The seventh trumpet clearly signals the time when God's "wrath is come" and the time of the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints. How can there be a time, times and half a time following that? That isn't possible. The time for the judgment of the wicked and reward for the saints is after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-21:4).
Nope. It's not a judgment of the Gentiles. It's not a judgment of nations, it's a judgment of all people from all nations. The rewards and punishment described clearly only apply to individuals and not entire nations."judgement of the Gentiles" is used interchangeably with "sheep & goat", because it pictures the "nations" being gathered and Israel was never reckoned among the nations (Numbers 23:9)
Again, Isaiah 65:17-25 has to do with the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth. No one will have mortal bodies at that time as at that point "there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain" (Rev 21:4).It's required for fulfillment of certain Old Testament passages like Isaiah 65:20-25
There are not two mass resurrections and judgments separated by a thousand years. The premil doctrine contradicts a great deal of scripture.There are two resurrections and two judgements -
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (Revelation 20:4-6)
Why don't you read the verses before Revelation 20:6?Compare the passage above to this verse:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Can you see that Revelation 1:5-6 says that Jesus is already reigning now and that we (believers) are already priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom?
Believers have part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection) when we're born again/saved.
... why is it that you believe that one must be bodily resurrected in order for Revelation 20:6 to occur?
No. Tribulation and wrath are different. The Great Tribulation is marked by 7 Trumpets. The wrath is marked by 7 vials (or bowls) of wrath and they each describe quite different events.
Also, consider revelation 11:15, the sounding of the 7th trumpet: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
This is the return of Jesus. Paul also notes that Jesus returns at the last Trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52). Jesus himself describes a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, and then says, when he returns, it will be with the trump of God (Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29-31).
Also note in Revelation 11:18, just after the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes over, it says the nations were angry and "your wrath has come". Do you see that? Seventh Trumpet, Jesus takes over, then the wrath comes to be poured out on a spiritually desolate world (because all God's people have been taken up at the sounding of the 7th trumpet).
Then, compare this with Revelation 19 which starts with the marriage supper of the lamb. The saints are there, participating in the marriage supper. There's a lot of praise for God and celebrating, at which time the saints are given new clothing, clean linen, fine and white, which is described as the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).
Shortly after this, all these saints gather behind Jesus to prepare for war. They ride down from the place they were raptured up to (Revelation 21:2 describes this place a "New Jerusalem come down from Heaven" and then gives a lengthy description of this "city's" physical attributes). The war they're riding down to is the battle of Armageddon, the last bowl of God's wrath.
Two simultaneous events happening at concurrently; up in New Jerusalem, the marriage supper of the lamb is happening. Down on a spiritually desolate earth, the wrath is being poured out, both of which culminate in the battle of Armageddon.
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