Changing Times.

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
I can see it just fine.
View attachment 276108
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

Ah yes, the usual out-of-context quote intended to make a text say something it does not say. Here is the complete paragraph from that page.

seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme, and joyned together with the Sunday. Crastino die & Sabbato,*& dominico, de orationis ordine dicemus, as S. Ambrose hath it. And probablie his often mention of hesternus dies remembred in the former Section, may have relation to the joynt observance of these two dayes: [Saturday and Sunday] and so may that which is reported then out of S. Chrysost. and S. Cy∣ril, Easterne Doctors both.* Sure I am Socrates counts both dayes [Saturday and Sunday] for weekely Festivalls,〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, and addes 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that on them both [Saturday and Sunday] the Congregation used to be assembled, and the whole Liturgie performed. Which plainely shewes, that in the practise of those Churches they were both [Saturday and Sunday] regarded, both alike observed. Gregory Nyssen speakes more home and unto the purpose. Some of the people had neglected to come unto the Church upon the Saturday; and on the Sunday he thus chides and rebukes them for it.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Ah yes, the usual out-of-context quote intended to make a text say something it does not say. Here is the complete paragraph from that page.

seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme, and joyned together with the Sunday. Crastino die & Sabbato,*& dominico, de orationis ordine dicemus, as S. Ambrose hath it. And probablie his often mention of hesternus dies remembred in the former Section, may have relation to the joynt observance of these two dayes: [Saturday and Sunday] and so may that which is reported then out of S. Chrysost. and S. Cy∣ril, Easterne Doctors both.* Sure I am Socrates counts both dayes [Saturday and Sunday] for weekely Festivalls,〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, and addes 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that on them both [Saturday and Sunday] the Congregation used to be assembled, and the whole Liturgie performed. Which plainely shewes, that in the practise of those Churches they were both [Saturday and Sunday] regarded, both alike observed. Gregory Nyssen speakes more home and unto the purpose. Some of the people had neglected to come unto the Church upon the Saturday; and on the Sunday he thus chides and rebukes them for it.

It's not out of context at all. It fits the context of this thread quite nicely.

"Our Saturday. The custom to call the Lord's day Sabbath did not commence until a thousand years later." Adamnan's Life of Columba p.230, Dublin, 1857

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
It's not out of context at all. It fits the context of this thread quite nicely.
"Our Saturday. The custom to call the Lord's day Sabbath did not commence until a thousand years later." Adamnan's Life of Columba p.230, Dublin, 1857

It most certainly was out-of-context. You only quoted part of the paragraph that made it appear the writer said the early church only observed the Saturday Sabbath, when the article clearly said that they observed both.
Adamnan's proves nothing about the other article. And it is wrong.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians .Chap. IX [Student of John]
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher?

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
It most certainly was out-of-context. You only quoted part of the paragraph that made it appear the writer said the early church only observed the Saturday Sabbath, when the article clearly said that they observed both.

That is not what the text says.

It says that the Sabbath was held in esteem, and was joined together with SUNday. That perfectly fits the context of this thread. It shows a change beginning in the fifth century.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

(1) Touching the orders setled by the Apostles, for the Congregation. (2) The Lords day and the Saturday, both festivals, and both alike observed in the East, in Igna∣tius time. (3) The Saturday not without great difficulty, made a fasting day. (4) The Controversie about keeping Easter; and how much it conduceth to the present businesse. (5) The feast of Easter not affixed to the Lords day, with∣out much opposition of the Easterne Churches. (6) What Iustin Martyr, and Dionysius of Corinth, have left 〈◊〉 of the Lords day; Clemens of Alexandria, his dislike thereof. (7) Vpon what grounds, the Christians of the former times, used to pray, standing, on the Lords day, and the time of Pentecost. (8) What is recorded by Tertullian, of the Lords day; and the assemblies of the Church. (9) Origen, as his master Clemens had done before, dislikes set dayes for the assemblie. (10) S. Cyprian what he tells us of the Lords day: and of the reading of the Scriptures in S. Cy∣prians time. (11) Of other holy dayes, established in these three first ages; and that they were observed as so∣lemnely as the Lords day was. (12) The name of Sunday often used for the Lords day, by the primitive Christians; but the Sabbath never.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
That is not what the text says.
It says that the Sabbath was held in esteem, and was joined together with SUNday. That perfectly fits the context of this thread. It shows a change beginning in the fifth century.[Wrong! DA]
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

• seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme, and joyned together with the Sunday.
• the joynt observance of these two dayes:
• S. Chrysost. and S. Cyril, Easterne Doctors both.* Sure I am Socrates counts both dayes for weekely Festivalls,
• on them both the Congregation used to be assembled, and the whole Liturgie performed.
• Which plainely shewes, that in the practise of those Churches they were both regarded, both alike observed.
• Some of the people had neglected to come unto the Church upon the Saturday; and on the Sunday he thus chides and rebukes them for it.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians .Chap. IX [Student of John]
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher?

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
(1) Touching the orders setled by the Apostles, for the Congregation. (2) The Lords day and the Saturday, both festivals, and both alike observed in the East, in Igna∣tius time. (3) The Saturday not without great difficulty, made a fasting day. (4) The Controversie about keeping Easter; and how much it conduceth to the present businesse. (5) The feast of Easter not affixed to the Lords day, with∣out much opposition of the Easterne Churches. (6) What Iustin Martyr, and Dionysius of Corinth, have left 〈◊〉 of the Lords day; Clemens of Alexandria, his dislike thereof. (7) Vpon what grounds, the Christians of the former times, used to pray, standing, on the Lords day, and the time of Pentecost. (8) What is recorded by Tertullian, of the Lords day; and the assemblies of the Church. (9) Origen, as his master Clemens had done before, dislikes set dayes for the assemblie. (10) S. Cyprian what he tells us of the Lords day: and of the reading of the Scriptures in S. Cy∣prians time. (11) Of other holy dayes, established in these three first ages; and that they were observed as so∣lemnely as the Lords day was. (12) The name of Sunday often used for the Lords day, by the primitive Christians; but the Sabbath never.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

A "summary" by one person but still no credible, verifiable, historical evidence i.e. something written at or near the times in question by participants or direct eye witnesses. See e.g. quotes from Ignatius and Justin posted in another post.
I don't want to see what some "scholar" concludes I want to see the real evidence.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
A "summary" by one person but still no credible, verifiable, historical evidence i.e. something written at or near the times in question by participants or direct eye witnesses. See e.g. quotes from Ignatius and Justin posted in another post.
I don't want to see what some "scholar" concludes I want to see the real evidence.

LOL! That was written near the time of Yahshua.

"According to the Assyrian-Babilonian conception, the particular stress lay necessarily on the number seven...The whole week pointed prominently towards the seventh day, the feast day, the rest day, in this day it collected, in this day it also consumated. 'Sabbath' is dervied from both 'rest' and 'seven'. With the Egyptians it was the reverse...for them on the contrary the sun-god was the beginning and origin of all things. The day of the sun, Sunday, became necessarily for them the feast day...The holiday was transferred from the last to the first day of the week." Daglige Liv i Norden, Vol.XIII, pp.54,55.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
• seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme, and joyned together with the Sunday.
• the joynt observance of these two dayes:
• S. Chrysost. and S. Cyril, Easterne Doctors both.* Sure I am Socrates counts both dayes for weekely Festivalls,
• on them both the Congregation used to be assembled, and the whole Liturgie performed.
• Which plainely shewes, that in the practise of those Churches they were both regarded, both alike observed.
• Some of the people had neglected to come unto the Church upon the Saturday; and on the Sunday he thus chides and rebukes them for it.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians .Chap. IX [Student of John]
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher?

You're just repeating yourself now. This has already been addressed with with historical proof.

"The seven planetary names of the days were at the close of the second century A.D., prevailing everywhere in the Roman Empire...This astrology originated in Egypt, where Alexandria now so loudly proclaimed it to all... 'The day of the sun' was the Lord's day, the chiefest and first of the week. The evil and fatal Saturn's day was the last of the week on which none could celebrate a feast.. Daglige Liv i Norden, Vol.XIII, pp.91,92

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
LOL! That was written near the time of Yahshua.
"According to the Assyrian-Babilonian conception, the particular stress lay necessarily on the number seven...The whole week pointed prominently towards the seventh day, the feast day, the rest day, in this day it collected, in this day it also consumated. 'Sabbath' is dervied from both 'rest' and 'seven'. With the Egyptians it was the reverse...for them on the contrary the sun-god was the beginning and origin of all things. The day of the sun, Sunday, became necessarily for them the feast day...The holiday was transferred from the last to the first day of the week." Daglige Liv i Norden, Vol.XIII, pp.54,55.

HARK! said:
You're just repeating yourself now. This has already been addressed with with historical proof.
"The seven planetary names of the days were at the close of the second century A.D., prevailing everywhere in the Roman Empire...This astrology originated in Egypt, where Alexandria now so loudly proclaimed it to all... 'The day of the sun' was the Lord's day, the chiefest and first of the week. The evil and fatal Saturn's day was the last of the week on which none could celebrate a feast.. Daglige Liv i Norden, Vol.XIII, pp.91,92

No historical anything. Same old out-of-context second hand quotes from the same writing.
Note "the evil and fatal Saturn's day was the last day of the week.'" So I guess even the Jews were worshiping on the wrong day. That is the only conclusion we can reach if we are to accept that this scribbling is the end all be all authority.
Your\the ball/Court.
.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Note "the evil and fatal Saturn's day was the last day of the week.'" So I guess even the Jews were worshiping on the wrong day.

LOL!

Note: Saturn day = Saturday = 7th day.

Renaming the day after a Pagan god doesn't make it the wrong day.

"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." -Dr. A.Chr. Bang - Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Your\the ball/Court.

Thank you!

T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884. "I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."

$1000 was a considerable amount of money in that day. Probably more like $20-30,000 today.

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
Thank you!
T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884. "I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."
$1000 was a considerable amount of money in that day. Probably more like $20-30,000 today.

Another unidentified copy/paste that supposedly proves something or other. Some guy named Enright claims that the Catholic church did this or that or said this or that, with no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence.
Here is some credible, verifiable, historical evidence from about 1000 years before there was a RCC to do or say anything.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians .Chap. IX [Student of John]
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher?

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
LOL!
Note: Saturn day = Saturday = 7th day.
Renaming the day after a Pagan god doesn't make it the wrong day.
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." -Dr. A.Chr. Bang - Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

Some cogitation by some anonymous guy in 1879 does not constitute credible, verifiable, historical evidence. More like historical gossip.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Some cogitation by some anonymous guy in 1879 does not constitute credible, verifiable, historical evidence. More like historical gossip.

Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solmenised by Christ, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observations of it." - Dissertation on the Lord's Day pp. 33, 34, 44

Shrewd Manager · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
None of the vss. you quoted say anything like that. Please do not try to interpret any scripture to me. I have been reading English since FDR and Greek since Ronald Reagan first term. Therefore I do not require any UR slanted interpretation

Thank you der Alter, you can sure find a way to show kindness in several languages.

So are you of the camp that believes that any Christian who has sworn angrily at a brother 'you fool' (or even done so in his heart), has purchased a one-way ticket to the fire of the damned, hm?

Der Alte · May 5, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Thank you der Alter, you can sure find a way to show kindness in several languages.
So are you of the camp that believes that any Christian who has sworn angrily at a brother 'you fool' (or even done so in his heart), has purchased a one-way ticket to the fire of the damned, hm?

I neglected to add Korean since Ford, and German. since Truman.
Unlike certain heterodox religious groups I read the whole Bible rather than a list of out-of-context proof texts.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Der Alte · May 5, 2020

HARK! said:
Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

Jews spread all over the known world at the time of Josephus and their meeting on the Sabbath would have been known. What is your point?
Here is some credible, verifiable, historical evidence from about 1000 years before there was a RCC to do or say anything.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107.] The Epistle to the Magnesians .Chap. IX [Student of John]
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things20 have come to the possession of a new21 hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance22 of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,23 and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the

Shrewd Manager · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
I neglected to add Korean since Ford, and German. since Truman.
Unlike certain heterodox religious groups I read the whole Bible rather than a list of out-of-context proof texts.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ah, so we need to find our the defence to Jesus' apparent threat in Paul's writings?

But why be eclectic if we can find it right here in the next few verses? We don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, now do we.

Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
(Matt 5:25-26)

It's about reconciling differences and not letting resentments fester, is it not? And the 'prison' is just another metaphor like 'Gehenna fire' for the place where God will fix it. The message is Yes, you will get out, but at great cost. As in: saved, though as through fire.

Changing Times.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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