I've been attending a large AOG church for some time now, and while I like the head pastor and his sermons, the worship style is perplexing. You sit in the dark for the first 20 - 30 minutes while a rock group plays. There seems to be little worshipping in the spirit the way spirit-filled churches used to be. It's like sitting in a movie theatre. Everyone just stands there, a few lift an arm or two, but it otherwise might as well be a baptist church. The only direct contact I've had with the Holy Spirit was the first time I attended and went forward for prayer after the service, since I had been "away" for some time. The prayer warrior laid her hand on my shoulder and started praying in tongues and I felt a powerful surge of power from the Holy Spirit. I walked out of there feeling shaken and thinking this was where the Lord wanted me to be. But since then, absolutely no Spirit manifestations. The Sunday eve service is more aimed at youth. What happened to joyful uninhibited worship services? I've visited a couple of other AOG churches during this period and more of the same. Is this the emergent church taking over the old spirit-led churches, or do I need to keep looking?
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Changes in Worship Style
- Thread starter ed foster
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stormdancer0
Do not be so open-minded that your brain falls out
If you believe that's where God wants you, perhaps that's why. Forget everyone else. Worship enthusiastically, and many who feel oppressed may join you!!
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Unfortunately, this seems to be a trend among Pentecostal churches. There has been a lot of work done that pays attention to these trends specifically within the Assemblies of God. In 1989, sociologist Margaret Poloma wrote a very influential book called The Assemblies of God at the Crossroads: Charisma and Institutional Dilemmas that basically the AG was at a crossroad between being fully Pentecostal and being something other than Pentecostal. In 2010, she followed up Crossroads with The Assemblies of God: Godly Love and the Revitalization of American Pentecostalism that basically was an update, but it came to the same conclusion.
Specifically, Poloma found that AG congregations can be categorized into four types: traditional, evangelical, renewalist, and alternative.Traditional congregations are those which strongly identify with the AG (and Pentecostalism in general), while encouraging "more intense experiences of the charismata, or gifts of the Holy Spirit" such as Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues. Evangelical AG congregations, the most common type, identify with the AG and Pentecostalism but "are moving (in varying degrees) away from the unique experiences that were once important markers of Pentecostal identity". Renewalist or charismatic AG churches are those that encourage supernatural gifts of the Spirit but weakly identify with the AG or Pentecostalism. Alternative churches are those where both identity with the AG and occurrence of unique Pentecostal experiences are low; these include churches adopting seeker-sensitive and emerging church models.
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That is so sad to read this. Myself, I go to a private baptist-run school, though many people and teachers inside are pentecostal/charismatic. Being a member of the worship team there, we have prayed and prayed for freedom, and we are seeing it in the school when we worship.
Back to the OP, its sad when the people that should be declaring freedom in worship and in the gifts of the Spirit in the name of Jesus are not. It should never be back-tracking, ALWAYS moving forward. When you see something go back to where it was earlier, something is wrong, and needs to be changed.
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FuegoPentecostes
Regular Member
Well if you feel God wants you there perhaps He's sent you there for a great purpose? Maybe you were sent to start the revival this church desperately needs! Spark the fire! I agree with stormdancer, if you feel like dancing, jumping or lifting your hands, dance jump and lift your hands! Show others what a Pentecostal church is really like!
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I agree with stomdancer and FuegoPenecostes if you feel like that is where God wants you, then stay there. I am having a similar experience (I have moved from a charismatic Non-Denominational church to a more traditional Baptist leaning Non-Denominational church.) I do not know why God has me there, but am almost certain that I am where He wants me. The worship is not as exciting as what I am used to, but I have learned so much in my time there. I am learning how to be quiet before the Lord and not to rely on my emotions (something I felt was a big part of the Charismatic church.) These are just two of the things I have learned.
If this church is where the Lord wants you, it may be like these others have said so that you can be an example to others, or it may be that He is teaching you something. Just be sure you are where God wants you.
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Thank you all for the constructive suggestions. Yes, I keep attending because I am drawn here. We do get to hear good expository preaching by the senior preacher.
But I was curious as to whether others have found this more subdued worship style has become the "new norm." Itwin's comments make me wonder whether many (most) are moving in the direction of "alternative" or seeker-sensitivity.
But I was curious as to whether others have found this more subdued worship style has become the "new norm." Itwin's comments make me wonder whether many (most) are moving in the direction of "alternative" or seeker-sensitivity.
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I actually see the biggest threat to be traditional evangelicalism. Pentecostal churches are just increasingly becoming bland vanilla evangelical. However, I also notice that a lot of young Pentecostals in the church growth area are adopting seeker sensitive approaches and that definitely is worrying. Younger Pentecostals who are most vocal about planting churches increasingly seem to think that spiritual gifts will hinder, rather than aid growth.
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Biblicist
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When I was reading your opening post my eyes quickly checked to see what flag was next to your name as you could have easily been sitting next to me at church for the past few decades. To answer your question, Itwin’s observations are certainly spot on and there has been a wealth of discussion over these past decades lamenting how quiet and docile the church particularly in the West has become since the demise of the Charismatic Renewal of dare I say, the 70’s.
I’m not sure if I am being all that fair with my following comments regarding Bill Hybel; his secular seeker-sensitive model that he established as an alternative model to the Charismatic Renewal has seemingly been adopted by large portions of the church and sadly also with much of the so called Full Gospel movement. To put it plainly, it is virtually impossible to combine the seeker-sensitive ethos with the power of the Spirit, the two are simply anti-types.
During the Charismatic Renewal, we frequently encountered vibrant worship and most importantly we also saw evidence of the power of the Spirit in our meetings; this meant that there was little need for the sound and light shows that we now regularly see that masquerade as worship meetings. Instead of the congregation leading the worship where a song leader and maybe a couple of musical instruments supported us, we now often find ourselves sitting (or standing) back merely watching a well staged performance. I am often fascinated when I scan around a large congregation and see how most people are merely standing there blandly staring at our very comprehensive sound and light productions.
In my own church, we recently had some new developments and I must admit that our new three super large High Definition projectors make a difference and they are certainly an improvement on the old models; that was probably $50,000 or so dollars well spent, that way I don’t have to turn my head more than a couple of degrees to see what’s happening. Our sound system could use some improvement as we only have a mono system and it would be nice to have say a 7.1 surround system in place with some rear surround speakers. As for the seats we could also probably use some recliners as well and why they don’t have our ushers serving drinks and lollies during the meeting – well not yet at least.
You may have noticed that I am an Australian but what you are experiencing seems to be pretty well the norm for most of us; at least for those of us who reside within Western consumer driven cultures.
This is a question that is best not answered on a public forum such as this as we do not know your circumstances; suffice to say, you may be better off simply making the most of what you have just as countless thousands of us are doing at the moment.
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I would also add that it is still possible to find churches where the gifts are in regular operation within a congregational setting; however, what scholars like Poloma and the observations of everyday people have found is that these churches are increasingly not to be found in the established (white) Pentecostal denominations.
It is well known that black Pentecostals have done a much better job remaining authentically Pentecostal than white Pentecostals have.
Independent churches often are very strong on the full gospel worship spectrum (however they also seem to be more likely to have authoritative pastors or teach questionable doctrines such as Word of faith or dominionism).
This is nothing new people. We've seen this same show before. Early Methodists were called the "shouting Methodists". They became cold and dead. Those who wanted the Spirit to move freely left to form the Holiness Movement, which was a Methodist renewal movement from where we get the Nazarene Church, Wesleyan Church, etc. Today, most Holiness churches have lost their shout, and so it is with Pentecostalism. Lord help us.
It is well known that black Pentecostals have done a much better job remaining authentically Pentecostal than white Pentecostals have.
Independent churches often are very strong on the full gospel worship spectrum (however they also seem to be more likely to have authoritative pastors or teach questionable doctrines such as Word of faith or dominionism).
This is nothing new people. We've seen this same show before. Early Methodists were called the "shouting Methodists". They became cold and dead. Those who wanted the Spirit to move freely left to form the Holiness Movement, which was a Methodist renewal movement from where we get the Nazarene Church, Wesleyan Church, etc. Today, most Holiness churches have lost their shout, and so it is with Pentecostalism. Lord help us.
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FuegoPentecostes
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.....That scares me!
This is very frightening to hear. Pentecostals losing their shout!? We all need to pray for a revival
I have to say, however, I haven't seen this in any of the churches I've attended. The only Pentecostal churches I've been to have been either black or Hispanic, and I certainly see the Holy Spirit alive and well in those churches . . .
Youtube search "El Ministerio de Dios es de Avivamiento" and they'll have a few clips from a Church I've known for a while in the Dominican Republic. Sort of a picker-upper, they're quite Spirit filled
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.....That scares me!
This is very frightening to hear. Pentecostals losing their shout!? We all need to pray for a revival
I have to say, however, I haven't seen this in any of the churches I've attended. The only Pentecostal churches I've been to have been either black or Hispanic, and I certainly see the Holy Spirit alive and well in those churches . . .
Youtube search "El Ministerio de Dios es de Avivamiento" and they'll have a few clips from a Church I've known for a while in the Dominican Republic. Sort of a picker-upper, they're quite Spirit filled
It seems that this problem mainly affects white Western Pentecostals. Perhaps the reason is that white Pentecostals (especially today) are more socially and economically alike the Christians that once looked down on them. Who knows.
Fuego, you might be interested in this article posted at the website of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference (NHCLC), "The Pentecostal Paradox: As the Global Chorus Grows, American Tongues Fall Silent". I can't post links yet, but if you do a web search of the article title you should find it.
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agrevbuzz
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I see another reason or symptom (I'm not sure which it is) when the AG decided to change their statement of fundamental truthes in the 2009 General council (I think it was 2009) to include the social gospel (i.e. doing good works and meeting human needs as a legitamate end unto itself). About the time each denomination has gone cold is when they implement the social gospel programs into their churches as an end unto themselves. Check the history on this and you will see I'm right. So, we quit worshiping as pentecostals and follow the social gospel and begin our long tread into night that so many of the mainline denominations have done before us.
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I wasn't aware they changed the Fundamental Truths. I just thought they added showing compassion to their threefold (now fourfold) mission: to evangelize, worship God, disciple believers, and show compassion. As far as I know, this is located in the AG's constitution and bylaws, not in the Fundamental Truths.
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agrevbuzz
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10. The Church and its Mission
The Church is the Body of Christ, the habitation of God through the Spirit, with divine appointments for the fulfillment of her great commission. Each believer, born of the Spirit, is an integral part of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven.
Since God’s purpose concerning man is to seek and to save that which is lost, to be worshipped by man, to build a body of believers in the image of His Son, and to demonstrate His love and compassion for all the world, the priority reason for being of the Assemblies of God as part of the Church is:
11. The Ministry
A divinely called and scripturally ordained ministry has been provided by our Lord for the fourfold purpose of leading the Church in:
Evangelization of the world.
Worship of God.
Building a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son.
Meeting human need with ministries of love and compassion.
The parts I bolded were added at the 2009 General Council. Effectively giving rise to the social gospel in the AG. The problem with the SG is that it becomes all to much meeting social needs and less about presenting the gospel
The Church is the Body of Christ, the habitation of God through the Spirit, with divine appointments for the fulfillment of her great commission. Each believer, born of the Spirit, is an integral part of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven.
Since God’s purpose concerning man is to seek and to save that which is lost, to be worshipped by man, to build a body of believers in the image of His Son, and to demonstrate His love and compassion for all the world, the priority reason for being of the Assemblies of God as part of the Church is:
- To be an agency of God for evangelizing the world.
- To be a corporate body in which man may worship God.
- To be a channel of God’s purpose to build a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son.
- To be a people who demonstrate God’s love and compassion for all the world.
- Enables them to evangelize in the power of the Spirit with accompanying supernatural signs.
- Adds a necessary dimension to worshipful relationship with God.
- Enables them to respond to the full working of the Holy Spirit in expression of fruit and gifts and ministries as in New Testament times for the edifying of the body of Christ and care for the poor and needy of the world.
11. The Ministry
A divinely called and scripturally ordained ministry has been provided by our Lord for the fourfold purpose of leading the Church in:
Evangelization of the world.
Worship of God.
Building a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son.
Meeting human need with ministries of love and compassion.
The parts I bolded were added at the 2009 General Council. Effectively giving rise to the social gospel in the AG. The problem with the SG is that it becomes all to much meeting social needs and less about presenting the gospel
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Bob Carabbio
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"I've visited a couple of other AOG churches during this period and more of the same."
It is what it is, these days. In our place you'd think you were in a Baptist church that forgot to change the sign. Most North Texas Churches are in the same condition. Lot's of the same 'ol "Soft rock Worship entertainment" with contemporary noise, and projected lyrics, and no SIGN of any "Spiritual manifestation" whatsoever.
The Plant Manager down at our place attends the "Oaks Fellowship" in Red Oak, TX. It's the largest AoG church in the area at 8,000, last I'd heard - JUST built a whole new Auditoreum, in fact to hold the crowds, and they have a VERY GOOD preacher - substantive.
But their association with the Assemblies of God is not displayed ANYWHERE either OUTSIDE, or on the inside either.
Our Plant Manager, after 6 months of attendance, was NOT AWARE that It was an Assembly of God Franchise, and he was totally unaware that it was even a "Pentecostal Church" at all.
We changed our name last year (From "DeSoto Assembly of God" to "Church on the Hill" in order to down-play our denominational affiliation, since we're in an 85% Black community, and A/G is perceived locally as "Whites only"). We're up to 20% Black in the Congregation, which we see as a VERY good development.
The North Texas District REQUIRED us to put the A/G Logo on our sign outside, after the name change even though other A/G churches in the area don't display it at all. SO we did - kept it small up in the corner.
It is what it is, these days. In our place you'd think you were in a Baptist church that forgot to change the sign. Most North Texas Churches are in the same condition. Lot's of the same 'ol "Soft rock Worship entertainment" with contemporary noise, and projected lyrics, and no SIGN of any "Spiritual manifestation" whatsoever.
The Plant Manager down at our place attends the "Oaks Fellowship" in Red Oak, TX. It's the largest AoG church in the area at 8,000, last I'd heard - JUST built a whole new Auditoreum, in fact to hold the crowds, and they have a VERY GOOD preacher - substantive.
But their association with the Assemblies of God is not displayed ANYWHERE either OUTSIDE, or on the inside either.
Our Plant Manager, after 6 months of attendance, was NOT AWARE that It was an Assembly of God Franchise, and he was totally unaware that it was even a "Pentecostal Church" at all.
We changed our name last year (From "DeSoto Assembly of God" to "Church on the Hill" in order to down-play our denominational affiliation, since we're in an 85% Black community, and A/G is perceived locally as "Whites only"). We're up to 20% Black in the Congregation, which we see as a VERY good development.
The North Texas District REQUIRED us to put the A/G Logo on our sign outside, after the name change even though other A/G churches in the area don't display it at all. SO we did - kept it small up in the corner.
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Yeah. No AOG where I'm from, but the Church of God and the Pentecostal Holiness congregations are in the same predicament, though some of them have a fit if a pastor tries to usher in any kind of music other than old fashioned hymns. Apparently, the Spirit is no respecter of musical style, since the hymns don't seem to be stirring up the Spirit much these days.
But apparently, the local Nazarene Church frequently has "problems" with people wondering into their services speaking in tongues. I heard they have a "Please do not speak in tongues" request posted in their church bulletins. Bizarre. If you know you're going to speak in tongues in church, why not find a church that will actually allow it (especially since the only actual difference between Nazarene and Pentecostal is TONGUES!).
So the denominational churches in our area have basically dried up and crawled into a coffin when it comes to being Spirit filled. The only Spirit left is in some white independent Pentecostal churches and, of course, lots of independent black churches. Unfortunately, both of these categories seem to be fully immersed in the prosperity gospel. Shame.
That is a very good development. From what I've seen, Pentecostal churches seem to be at the forefront of creating multi-ethnic churches.
Any idea why they would pick on you guys when everyone else is getting away with it?
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Those saying if you believe it is were God wants you then stay. If that's what you feel God wants and you look for another church then you would be in disobedience.
Be the change you wish to see. Be the old path in the new way.
Which I think for the most part this is the direction AG/CoG and the independent Pentecostal churches are going. Every AG Churh in my area is embracing the emergent way. The CoG church are doing the same. And I find the ones that cling to the old path are dry and dead. A bunch of elders that show the youth no passion and the only passion the younger generations see comes from the concert style worship.
I don't believe there's any thing wrong with the different style, however iv een blessed. 22 yrs old and have been raised in the tradition firery Pentecostal settings and I know the difference between a gully washer and concert
There are still churches that do it the old way. Were are you from? I can ask around and maybe find a good church that still allows God to have his freedom. Which before you do anythig pray and find Gods will. Gods will is what matters. Not our own
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