Change in morality?

James_Lai

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems religious morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many things like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, punishment of children etc.

If God and His word are unchanging, why there is seeming fluidity in His morality?
 
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Mark Quayle

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many thins like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, child punishing etc.

If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?
Not sure why you think it changes. The visible church does, perhaps. But not God.
 
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eleos1954

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many thins like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, child punishing etc.

If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?

There isn't fluidity in God's standards of morality. People (some Christians a like) give over to compromise in order to justify their "morals".

God don't change ..... people do.
 
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Lukaris

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The Lord’s commandments have never changed it is just that greater mercy & forgiveness are to be observed in the Gospel. I know human history is most often a mess but if you compare the 2 covenants, the moral code of God is consistent.

The application of the law is stern although mercy & compassion were first & foremost ( for ex. Micah 6:8). Still stern application is evident in ( for ex. Leviticus 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20). There is much charity in Leviticus 19 & examples of being charitable in ( for ex. Isaiah 58, Psalms 15 etc.).

In the New Testament in Romans 1, the moral law is the same but Paul is preaching according to the application of the Gospel ( prime example: The Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7). In Matthew 15:1-20, the Lord reiterates what defiles us which is the same meaning of what is sinful or not.

As Solomon preached in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 is to fear the Lord & keep His commandments The Gospel calls us to love God & neighbor more clearly (Matthew 22:36-40 etc.)while the old law of fear of the Lord seemed more prevalent. Our Gospel emphasis is on love but the fear of the Lord is needed also so we know right from wrong ( see Psalms 19 etc.).

This is where we repent ( Matthew 4:17), call upon the Lord ( Romans 10:9-13), & strive to keep the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8-10 etc.) in daily life.
 
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Hawkins

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Morality is more a pizza with toppings. Law written in our hearts is like the bread part of the pizza which is common to everyone. However different groups and individuals may "harden their hearts" in a way under the different circumstances. It is so because humans are animals of education. We are educated differently under different circumstances and in different period of time of our life. This is how the toppings are added, starting with when we are still in our mother's womb. The devil and his horde can start to 'educate' us before we are born. Today's science actually agrees that we can be educated before birth. The question is rather who is capable of educating us that way.

Before birth it is possible that the devil would start his works such that we are so influenced to form our culture as an alter form or source of morality. After birth we are influenced by what our culture and society are through our own parental education. Since childhood we are forced into a modern but secular education system where we can deliver yet another 'topping'. That's where today's atheists are coming from. They made use of their educated morality to judge even God Himself, by saying how cruel the OT God was etc., etc. It is actually possible that today's education is the 666 through which everyone (except for God's people as prophesied) will deliver a mark on his forehead (mind) and right hand (behavior) to fight God.

Different people may thus have different versions of an altered form of morality due to the fact that everyone is educated differently through his life time from before being born, till influenced by parents and cultures of a society till formally educated through our secular education and finally enters the society to be influeced by everything including from our Internet. That's how the different 'toppings' are added to the 'pizza'. On the other hand, you may still find the origiinal Law form of morality granted by God. For example, today you may consider homosexuality is right, tomorrow after keeping touch with God you may reckon that it's a sin. Your hardened heart can be softened this way. While at the end of day, God's judgment will be based on the original morality granted equally to everyone, which is the bread part of a pizza.
 
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If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?
There are two reasons for that.
  1. Outside of Christianity, the World/dead religion is constantly working to water down/neutralize the beneficial/redeeming effects of Christianity.
  2. Inside of Christianity, God graces one's ignorance. That is, He doesn't hold against us what He hasn't taught us, yet.
    There can still be bad "consequences" for doing spiritually dumb stuff, however.
    Being taught about that "dumb stuff" is one of the benefits of being a disciple of Christ.
 
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Sketcher

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many thins like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, child punishing etc.

If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?
I think you're giving women preachers, promiscuity, and divorce too much credit. They're not right today any more than they were thousands of years ago.
Slavery is contextual. In the Roman Empire it would have been worse to take a hard abolitionist stance, so slaveowners were required to treat their slaves humanely. Fast forward a few hundred years to the plantations of the New World, and that wasn't meaningfully enforced, so it was better to get rid of the institution itself. Christians led the way on that.
Biblical child punishment isn't wrong. That does allow for spanking. I believe that if more of it were correctly applied, along with other aspects of good parenting, society wouldn't have so many unruly, insufferable people.
 
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Mayflower1

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many thins like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, child punishing etc.

If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?

God never changes. It is people who compromise the Word of God and the morals associated.
 
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Mayflower1

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There are two reasons for that.
  1. Outside of Christianity, the World/dead religion is constantly working to water down/neutralize the beneficial/redeeming effects of Christianity.
  2. Inside of Christianity, God graces one's ignorance. That is, He doesn't hold against us what He hasn't taught us, yet.
    There can still be bad "consequences" for doing spiritually dumb stuff, however.
    Being taught about that "dumb stuff" is one of the benefits of being a disciple of Christ.

I agree with one for sure. On number two, sin is sin even in ignorance. God's people perish for lack of knowledge. We are forgiven in Christ Jesus, but there are natural consequences to sin. And I think the consequences are seen today.
 
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Sabertooth

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PloverWing

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If God and His word unchanging, why is there seeming fluidity in His morality?

God doesn't change, but part of the picture is that we, as flawed human beings, do not understand God perfectly. (There's an understatement!) Sometimes we think that the will of God is for us to act one way, and then we grow in understanding, and we see that those actions did not truly express a love for neighbor, and we need to act differently.
 
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dóxatotheó

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems religious morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many things like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, punishment of children etc.

If God and His word are unchanging, why there is seeming fluidity in His morality?
Standards of morals hasn't change nor would we argue it did things detrimental now is because humans ethics are subjective while God is objective we arent objective on morality God is, what we follow is what we are given.
 
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timf

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Christianity is supposed to be free from the law. However, many people still try to administer it by a system of rules.

Paul addresses the obvious question if people are free from the law, can they do anything they want. His answer is an emphatic "No".

The question becomes "How then should Christians live if they have no rules to follow?"

The answer is a closeness to God that allows love (selflessness) to grow to the benefit of the individual and those around him.

1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
1Co 13:6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
 
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James_Lai

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Christianity is supposed to be free from the law. However, many people still try to administer it by a system of rules.

Paul addresses the obvious question if people are free from the law, can they do anything they want. His answer is an emphatic "No".

The question becomes "How then should Christians live if they have no rules to follow?"

The answer is a closeness to God that allows love (selflessness) to grow to the benefit of the individual and those around him.

1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
1Co 13:6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Jesus says, if you do bad stuff you go to hell, if you do good stiff, you go to heaven. There is clear morality in all His teachings.

If we look at all of the Bible, some things are imposed, for example no women teaching. No church today will dare follow it, unless it’s in a very backwards country. So the morals are okay to change, no standard, evolving in parallel with secular understanding of society. Or the Bible says it’s okay to be a slave, and churches today vehemently reject the idea. Or homosexuals etc.

Seems Christian belief follows worldly morals 1:1
 
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timf

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I would agree that perhaps even most of what is called Christianity follows the world. This was predicted and, sadly, has come to pass.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;

Php 3:18 For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 whose end is perdition, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

2Ti 3:1 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self–control, fierce, no lovers of good,
2Ti 3:4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts,

The first time I read this last verse I thought of daytime TV.

If you want to find real Christianity, you are going to have to dig deep to get through all of the baloney.

The first step is to consider whether or not what is called "the church" was intended to replace Israel or if it is an aberration (the time of the gentiles Rom 11:25) representing an interval until Israel is restored. This difference has a huge impact on if the words of Jesus were spoken for all people of all time or if they were meant for the nation of Israel in the hope that they would receive the kingdom and new covenant he was offering.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The movie "National Treasure" failed at so many levels of logic but did convey an interesting observation that different color glass lenses would allow different images to be seen. In a similar way, the assumptions and preconceptions one brings to the bible will greatly influence what one takes away from it.

I understand it can be frustrating to try to understand Christianity from the many different ways it is presented.

For example, many in Christianity condemn homosexuality was a willful choice in rebellion against God. Some even rise to self-righteousness in their condemnation. However, if you read in Romans chapter one that homosexuality is described as consequential to worshiping the creature more than the creator. It is one of the two examples cited of holding the truth in unrighteousness.

Given this, Christians should approach homosexuals with great sadness and not self-righteousness. Praying for those who suffer (this is not a "gay" lifestyle).

For those who declare that Christians should accept homosexuality as simply an alternative consider what Jesus said;

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Those who follow the world (sadly most of contemporary Christianity) they should consider that the bible calls this a poor choice;

Jas 4:4 Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out devils, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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James_Lai

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I would agree that perhaps even most of what is called Christianity follows the world. This was predicted and, sadly, has come to pass.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;

Php 3:18 For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 whose end is perdition, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

2Ti 3:1 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self–control, fierce, no lovers of good,
2Ti 3:4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts,

The first time I read this last verse I thought of daytime TV.

If you want to find real Christianity, you are going to have to dig deep to get through all of the baloney.

The first step is to consider whether or not what is called "the church" was intended to replace Israel or if it is an aberration (the time of the gentiles Rom 11:25) representing an interval until Israel is restored. This difference has a huge impact on if the words of Jesus were spoken for all people of all time or if they were meant for the nation of Israel in the hope that they would receive the kingdom and new covenant he was offering.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The movie "National Treasure" failed at so many levels of logic but did convey an interesting observation that different color glass lenses would allow different images to be seen. In a similar way, the assumptions and preconceptions one brings to the bible will greatly influence what one takes away from it.

I understand it can be frustrating to try to understand Christianity from the many different ways it is presented.

For example, many in Christianity condemn homosexuality was a willful choice in rebellion against God. Some even rise to self-righteousness in their condemnation. However, if you read in Romans chapter one that homosexuality is described as consequential to worshiping the creature more than the creator. It is one of the two examples cited of holding the truth in unrighteousness.

Given this, Christians should approach homosexuals with great sadness and not self-righteousness. Praying for those who suffer (this is not a "gay" lifestyle).

For those who declare that Christians should accept homosexuality as simply an alternative consider what Jesus said;

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Those who follow the world (sadly most of contemporary Christianity) they should consider that the bible calls this a poor choice;

Jas 4:4 Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out devils, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From all that it seems God is flip-flopping. How about the same yesterday, today and forever? Seems in the actual fact it all depends on when where and who

If we are to accept a God of the absolutes, then we are to uphold His decrees. Women don’t get to teach, period. Cause it’s what God says so it must be true and good, no questions asked

When we start to say er ahem well He could not really mean that, or He intended it only to a certain group of people or in a period of time that has ended etc, we are effectively editing God. So we become higher than God, writing our own Bible so to speak however we want. Then that proves there is no God: our actins demonstrate that the idea of absolutes doesn’t stand the test of reality.

So the inevitable result is that in order to be applied, the tenets of the Bible are to be interpreted out and adapted to the state of the society. It’s not unchanging truth anymore , it’s a mere tool to conform to how we ourselves want to live, and a very flexible one

Anybody who opposes such approach is a literalist, fundamentalist and is a small minority nowadays. It wasn’t this way always, of course. There were times when it was common to be strongly conservative in regards to Biblical dogmas… I think it’s good and bad how things are today…

Good because we are free in our spirit, bad because religious moral foundation was stripped from under the society, but a new one was never laid…

Do we base it on psychology? Philosophy? Sociology? Economics? Political science? Biology in general? It’s unclear and pretty much one big mess and confusion today.

We have destroyed pretty good the thought of our predecessors during millennia, but have not created our own thought.

So it’s a huge ideological crisis. The void is going to be filled with something eventually. I don’t know if we’ll live to see it or of humanity will even survive until then. I just hope it won’t be something sinister
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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This not only concerns Christianity. I observe that Christian morals change over time. What was bad before, at some point becomes okay. What was okay before, becomes bad. It seems religious morality evolves with progress of secular morality. Many things like divorce, promiscuity, slavery, women preachers, homosexuality, punishment of children etc.

If God and His word are unchanging, why there is seeming fluidity in His morality?
Not quite. Parts of the church are changing morality to become more acceptable to the world. This is known as Progressive Christianity.

The bulk of the church doesn't change its stance:

Divorce is a complex issue and was and is always allowed for infidelity. I think the only real concession in the modern world would be divorce in the instance of abuse. This would fit with Jesus general trend of loving victims.

Promiscuity is still considered wrong in the churches that I attend and would result in a public casting out if not dealt with.

Woman Preachers existed in the early church though not in proportion to male. As time went by the church began to frown on then forbid it and then it began to resurge. Theologically this one is a little unclear so it often depends on the denomination: some allow some do not.

Slavery was not a specific part of the gospel message but the institution of slavery is actually difficult to uphold if you hear Jesus's words (do unto others as you would have them do to you). Slavery began to die out where Christianity was growing. When it resurged in 'Christendom' it was notably immediately after the Englightenment where Christian ideals were thrown off wholesale. Christians actively opposed it then.

Homosexuality is still a sin (except among Progressive churches), but the church is meant to reach out to sinners. Unfortunately there is the opposite extreme of those who make pariahs of homosexuals too.

Punishment of children was never a Christian thing. The best you can get is proverbs' Spare the rod and spoil the child, but that is about discipline, which doesn't necessarily mean punishment. Theologically we are still there, though I think the world has encroached on parenting to the extent that some forms of discipline are considered abuse. As an older person I was subject to those forms of discipline and am no worse off for it.

In my experience of church, I would say that there are many extremes but on the whole people are trying to maintain the authentic Christian experience and in fact none of the things you mention are central to the Christian message so variance is likely.
 
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