Change in Beliefs...Help!

[All4Christ]

A bit of background: I'm a conservative fundamentalist Christian. I've always been one of the most conservative kids at our liberal arts college. Not everyone got to know me, but I eventually found about 3 really close friends. Now, for my story...

In my Social Research Class, we have been doing a survey poll for students here at Messiah College about the religious change in college students throughout their career in college. Since I've been doing so much work on this, I've started to evaluate my own life. I have changed during college. I freely admit this, yet I hesitate to say whether it was a positive or negative change. I have friends that are so much more liberal than I am, and I fear that they have changed my beliefs at times. It is difficult now for me to say whether or not homosexuals are able to be Christians, while earlier before college I wouldn't think that they could be Christians at all. I don't believe homosexuality is correct, but I also see the points that some of them make about the way Christians treat them and the way how they think that contradicts with the Bible. I'd say that this has made me more loving, but at what cost? Am I compromising my beliefs for the sake of loving those who God has made in spite of their sexual orientation? Am I losing the faith that I should have? Or take theology for instance. There are several areas in my theology that I am possibly changing my thoughts about. Some of these might be once saved always saved versus possibilities of losing your faith, predestination versus free-will, etc. etc. I don't know what to do or think. Take music for example. Surprise surprise, I'm willing to dance now! Before college, I had never heard ANY secular music, save classical music. Now.....heh. Think of that, a traditional ultra-conservative Pentecostal willing to dance and listen to hip-hop music. The words are often not good at all. I have fun dancing to it! I feel like I'm doing something wrong when I think about it, yet when I do it, it is so much fun. If this is sin, is that the case with all sin? is all sin fun? Where do we stop being part of the world and separating ourselves from it? My friends have influenced me so much to become more liberal. Do I need to stop being friends with them for the cause of staying conservative? If I do stop being friends with them, who will witness to them? Who will I be able to talk to, to have listen to me etc.? Not many people in the church have taken the time to get to know the real me. These people accept me for WHO I AM. Why haven't people in the church done the same thing? What do I do? How do I handle this?
--Laura

 

[WeakButHopeful]

In my opinion, an excellent book on the real world conflicts that a Christian goes through in dealing with the world, and what are real causes for concern and what are doubts being planted in your mind by the evil one, is C.S.Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters". I've mentioned it elsewhere in CF and others have replied very favorably (though I don't know, maybe some don't like it). The book is told from the point of view of a devil trying to turn a Christian away from "the enemy". You'll see that this "warfare" we are engaged in is not trivial, the devil is crafty and does not always make a direct attack.

Now, from what I just said you probably can't tell if I am worried about you becoming more "liberal" or not, and indeed I am not. My main worry is that you stay focused on Jesus and do what He wants you to do. I do think it is a good sign when you say you feel you are more loving. That is good. And we know that Jesus was accused of associating with people He shouldn't have or going places he shouldn't. And I think (though I can't prove) that He celebrated at parties. I suppose they may have even accused Him of being too "liberal".

But we are involved in a continuous struggle, so I don't think we can ever decide that just because we haven't crossed certain lines we are "OK". I think that's what Jesus meant when He said He was the way, the truth and the life. I think we have to stay focused on Jesus. In other words, when I am certain a situation is sinful, I try to totally avoid it. But when I see a conflict between loving others, or witnessing to them, or in general doing what Jesus seems to be calling me to do vs. what others would like to see me do, well I have to do what Jesus seems to be calling me to do. But this is a spiritual war so it's not always as cut and dried as that. I pray to the Holy Spirit to give me the wisdom to know how to follow Jesus in the real world.

May God bless you.

 

[RunningWill]

A Christian is one who follows Jesus Christ. Any Christian that disagrees with this must understand that they are young and are growing in their trust of God. To love the new Christian and show tolerance is a joyful responsibility; so is guiding them or even correcting them. Hopefully, our more mature brothers and sisters will show a similar responsibility and help us as well. We are children and we make our steps toward God by direction of Christ and the helper, the Holy Spirit. Will not God speak through you towards those whom he loves?

Truth and free-will both have those wonderful and deep feelings that we crave. It is your free-will that allows you to speak the truth, even under the worst conditions. Life is not canned! God does not run a processing plant. Joy comes by freedom from darkness and with the loving strong arms of your Father whom you trust and love.

If you test God, who do you think will pass? Is not responsibility of being Father also in helping and raising those who seek him? Is there anywhere else to go after you have found your Father?

I wish that I could dance, sounds great. Sensual dancing should be reserved for and with one's spouse only (privately). Your light and relationship with your Father in Heaven is a joyful and confident thing. If one shows self-control and obeys Christ then their relationship with God is unique and acceptable. Since when is uniqueness, dancing, or many-a-churches' doctrines to control the Father and His child's relationship?

In this world, spiritual pollution is a problem. As Christians, we are free and have a free-will to do what, "as we please?" or "to be a loving slave of light for our Father?" Love is about servitude. Would not joy be about relationships?

I hope that I helped you some. May God help guide you.

--Stephen

 

[Rafael]

The Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

In the last days, there will be more demand for teachers that will scratch the ears of the listener and sound doctrine will not be tolerated. As mentioned earlier, the devil is subtle and these last days false doctrines will appeal to the flesh.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Yes, it is great to have joy and there is nothing wrong with dancing in itself, but dancing around a golden calf got many of the Israelites death. Each person must know where to go and to what lengths they are able to stand before the power of temptation, and has to decide how much they can resist. If open sin is taking place before your eyes, then this would be a signal to disassociate from the activity.
As far as doctrinal change and "once saved always saved" - this would be no excuse for a person to say, "well, I am saved forever", and then go and engage in sinful activity - having a false confidence that God will not take any action against such sin. It just isn't true, and only God knows who the elect are - we don't, and are told to examine ourselves to see if we are for real, not being counterfeit or phoney.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The problem with man is that the unregenerate spirit can fool itself into thinking it is saved just by saying "I believe in Jesus". The devils believe and tremble.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Our faith has to be more than just lip service and does envolve what we do - not just what we say.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Yes, God is graceful to us, but He will not be mocked by us using Him disrespectfully as a rag to just wipe the filth from our lives. So then, be careful to keep yourself clean and pure as a vessel fit and ready for service to Him who is able to keep you.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[jenste]

I've never understood why some Christians think it's a sin to dance. I love to dance and I think God gave me some talent for it. But there are different ways you can dance, and you don't have to be drunk, even if some people who dance like to drink in excess.

If you have a hard time drawing the line between dancing and dancing sensually and getting drunk, then I wouldn't advise going to clubs as a Christian. You know what will happen if you go there.

But if you go for joy of dancing and because you like music and spending time with your friends, then this is very different. You don't have to dress provocatively or dance sensually at a dance club, either.

But I think some people fear they can't control themselves so they avoid putting thiemselves in these situations altogether, because of what could happen.

I think if you deprive candy from a child, the child will not know what they're missing. But if they wander off with a friend to a candy store, some kids will go candy-crazy and not want to leave the store.

My opinion is - everything in moderation, except for the things clearly mentionned in the bible that we shouldn't do, like pre-marital sex for instance.

If you deprive someone of something then one of two things can happen. They can develop an aversion to it. Or, they can make a new discovery and make up for lost time, kind of like the dieter who eats healthily then purges one day and stops eating good stuff. Then it's really hard to go back on the diet because they know that cheese cake and hagen daz exist.

It's virtually impossible to live in this world (go to school, work and earn a living, have non-Christian neighbours, etc) and not have any exposure to popular culture. And I think you're actually doing a child a disservice by allowing them to live in a Christian bubble and not know that other people live differently and how they should confront temptations and where they should draw the line.

I believe in the bible but I don't add extra rules to it, although I completely understand why some people do. They want to make sure they won't be tempted to do something they shouldn't, that they won't go too far, so just avoid it completely.

I am personally tempted by the untouched cookie jar, so I don't live by extra-strict rules because I know I'd eat the whole jar if I did, and buy another box.
But try to live by Christ's teachings all the same and don't make compromises to his message. You can still live "in the world" without living "of the world."

 

[The Midge]

A bit of background: I'm a conservative fundamentalist Christian. I've always been one of the most conservative kids at our liberal arts college. Not everyone got to know me, but I eventually found about 3 really close friends. Now, for my story...

In my Social Research Class, we have been doing a survey poll for students here at Messiah College about the religious change in college students throughout their career in college. Since I've been doing so much work on this, I've started to evaluate my own life. I have changed during college. I freely admit this, yet I hesitate to say whether it was a positive or negative change. I have friends that are so much more liberal than I am, and I fear that they have changed my beliefs at times. It is difficult now for me to say whether or not homosexuals are able to be Christians, while earlier before college I wouldn't think that they could be Christians at all. I don't believe homosexuality is correct, but I also see the points that some of them make about the way Christians treat them and the way how they think that contradicts with the Bible. I'd say that this has made me more loving, but at what cost? Am I compromising my beliefs for the sake of loving those who God has made in spite of their sexual orientation? Am I losing the faith that I should have? Or take theology for instance. There are several areas in my theology that I am possibly changing my thoughts about. Some of these might be once saved always saved versus possibilities of losing your faith, predestination versus free-will, etc. etc. I don't know what to do or think. Take music for example. Surprise surprise, I'm willing to dance now! Before college, I had never heard ANY secular music, save classical music. Now.....heh. Think of that, a traditional ultra-conservative Pentecostal willing to dance and listen to hip-hop music. The words are often not good at all. I have fun dancing to it! I feel like I'm doing something wrong when I think about it, yet when I do it, it is so much fun. If this is sin, is that the case with all sin? is all sin fun? Where do we stop being part of the world and separating ourselves from it? My friends have influenced me so much to become more liberal. Do I need to stop being friends with them for the cause of staying conservative? If I do stop being friends with them, who will witness to them? Who will I be able to talk to, to have listen to me etc.? Not many people in the church have taken the time to get to know the real me. These people accept me for WHO I AM. Why haven't people in the church done the same thing? What do I do? How do I handle this?
--Laura

Sorry, I'm not in a possition to tell you what to do Laurra. You are going to have to work that out for yourself. Perhaps that is what education and spiritual growth are; learning new things and being changed by them. A seed does not stay the same when it grows. First you get a shoot and a single root, then stems and leaves, then branches and finally flowers that transform into fruit. The original seed is long gone. Change is inevitable. Change can be both ways, from life to death and decay.

You seem to be asking "what is so good about being conservative" and "is it the only valid expression of Christianity"? That is a good question. Are you daring enough to try some others?

What makes a "good" Christian?
Why is every church different and why are there so many different ways that Christians live? Could I learn something from their life style and forms of church?
Why didn't Jesus give us a simple set of rules to follow?
Who decides if someone is saved or not? Can we tell? Does God judge our slavation by grace or by works?
Did Jesus know and associate with immoral people? How? What did his critics make of this and did their opinions matter?
Is Biblical interpretation inevitable because of the text based medium witten in ancient languages that you are not fluent and the distance in time, place and culture from the events and teaching? If interpretation is inevitable is there a right way to interpret the Bible? Are different approaches to reading the Bible tools to be used as appropriate? Are some approaches better than others or do they tell us different truths that are no less valid?

There are no easy answers. I think we would all come to different conclusions. And answers will not be cheap either. It costs to love and it costs to follow Christ. If we are to be open to be guided by God then we have to be open to change.

I have no comprehensive answers myself. for you.

 

[All4Christ]

Jenste, thanks for remark about the "cookie jar". I do believe that I have enough self-control to not ever dance sensually or anything like that, because to me, that seems to....let's see how to word it....it doesn't follow what I believe at all, even with changes to my beliefs. As far as drinking, my beliefs have not changed a bit on that. I still am against drunkenness. That is clearly spelled out in the Bible, as well as dancing sensually. But I agree with you on this:

My opinion is - everything in moderation, except for the things clearly mentionned in the bible that we shouldn't do, like pre-marital sex for instance.

If you deprive someone of something then one of two things can happen. They can develop an aversion to it. Or, they can make a new discovery and make up for lost time, kind of like the dieter who eats healthily then purges one day and stops eating good stuff. Then it's really hard to go back on the diet because they know that cheese cake and hagen daz exist.

It's virtually impossible to live in this world (go to school, work and earn a living, have non-Christian neighbours, etc) and not have any exposure to popular culture. And I think you're actually doing a child a disservice by allowing them to live in a Christian bubble and not know that other people live differently and how they should confront temptations and where they should draw the line.

My parents raised me in an atmosphere where I didn't have any contact with much of the secular world. I didn't have any non-Christian friends, secular music, though not prohibited, was strongly discouraged, and we mainly didn't have much interaction with people outside of church. When I got to college, I found a whole new array of opinions that I had never encountered before. Thankfully, I have enough beliefs that are strong enough to keep from suddenly loving these new views so much that I don't do things in moderation. What my question was, is it okay to do things in moderation? You answered that in your opinion, so thank you. That's encouraging.

Raphe, I know the account of the Israelites dancing to the Golden Calf very well. I've studied it many times, but even though I have hesitations about dancing, I don't think that dancing in and of itself is a sin....at least I don't now. I've been doing some reading and I guess it depends on the reasons for why you dance and the way that you dance.
As far as the passage in James goes, I agree wholeheartedly. I can't just "believe in God." In spite of changing some, I still have more than belief in God. I know that there is more than belief in God, just as there also is more than legalism. I believe that I do have that relationship with God that is more than "the demons believing and trembling" As far as using God as a filthy rag, that is the last thing that I ever want to do. God is Holy and Awesome. If I ever felt that what I was doing was treating Him in that way, then by all means I would stop immediately. There are some things that I don't find clearly spelled out in the Bible. Like Midge said, it would be nice if it was spelled out clearly, but it's not. I think, at least I pray, that God will not condemn us to Hell for misinterpreting a small section of the Bible when it isn't clear. If you disagree with that, feel free to post a reply to this. I would be happy to hear other opinions.

Midge, I have to let you know that I do love theology. I took theology recently as a class in college, and one of the things I struggled with is, is it possible for more than one thing to be a valid interpretation? So far, the answer that I most closely associate myself with is yes. Some of the theological backings to various doctrines are equally sound. Still, there are other issues that I don't believe are equally valid theologically. Thanks for the encouragement and for the prayer. I really appreciate it.

 

[The Midge]

Midge, I have to let you know that I do love theology. I took theology recently as a class in college, and one of the things I struggled with is, is it possible for more than one thing to be a valid interpretation? So far, the answer that I most closely associate myself with is yes. Some of the theological backings to various doctrines are equally sound. Still, there are other issues that I don't believe are equally valid theologically. Thanks for the encouragement and for the prayer. I really appreciate it.

That is similar to the conclusions that I reached after taking a class recently but i wasn't goig to force my opinions on you. We live in a postmodern age which challenges certainty. Perhaps this is the greatest issue facing the Church of today.

Perhaps the key is experience and encounter with God. The guidance of the Holy Spirit when reading scripture of engaging with the world is needed more than now than for much of the last couple of milennia. Maybe that is why there has been an increasng emphasis on the Charismatic gifts and the work of the Holy Spirit in recent times.

 

[The Midge]

May I recommend a book, I've just borrowed a copy of "The Post Evagelical" by Dave Tomlinson (Traingle 1995). So far he gives a sumary of Evangelicalism and a reaction to it by those who want to go beyond the confines of the movement and possibly think for themselves.

The book focuses on the context of the UK. A review here: http://www.holyjoes.com/biblio.htm

Dave Tomlinson started a Pub Church called Holy Joes (Which still seems to be doing well) but that may be a bit alternative for you.

Link to the Church Site here:
http://www.holyjoes.com/info.htm

Thinking about it A4C your op has opened a seriously god line of thought. Thanks.

 

[Rafael]

Raphe, I know the account of the Israelites dancing to the Golden Calf very well. I've studied it many times, but even though I have hesitations about dancing, I don't think that dancing in and of itself is a sin....at least I don't now. I've been doing some reading and I guess it depends on the reasons for why you dance and the way that you dance.
As far as the passage in James goes, I agree wholeheartedly. I can't just "believe in God." In spite of changing some, I still have more than belief in God. I know that there is more than belief in God, just as there also is more than legalism. I believe that I do have that relationship with God that is more than "the demons believing and trembling" As far as using God as a filthy rag, that is the last thing that I ever want to do. God is Holy and Awesome. If I ever felt that what I was doing was treating Him in that way, then by all means I would stop immediately. There are some things that I don't find clearly spelled out in the Bible. Like Midge said, it would be nice if it was spelled out clearly, but it's not. I think, at least I pray, that God will not condemn us to Hell for misinterpreting a small section of the Bible when it isn't clear. If you disagree with that, feel free to post a reply to this. I would be happy to hear other opinions.

Sounds like your on the right track to me and are not losing faith. I meant no accusation against you and was talking extremes, so that you would be careful. Do you know people that call theirselves Christians but openly sin against what God says? Those would be the ones that use His name in vain, disrespectfully. It is actually a responsibility of the brother to look after his brother as a watchman, and warn of danger ahead for a continuance of rebellion to God's direction for life.
The dancing at the Golden calf was an example of how quickly people that should have known better and had seen God's miracles became idolatrous. David danced before the Lord, and it was a common part of worship in the old testament, so I don't have anything against dancing. It's who you are dancing for and what it means that makes a difference. There is nothing wrong with fun, either.
The Bible tells us that everything we do should be done with faith. If you can have faith that it is okay, then go ahead. If you don't know, then don't do till you do know. That's the best way to not make big mistakes. I didn't mean to come off as judgmental towards you. I was only trying to help you discern from God's Word and help you be careful in your choices. Blessing to you on your journey.

Romans 14:23 But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[wonder111]

I

It's virtually impossible to live in this world (go to school, work and earn a living, have non-Christian neighbours, etc) and not have any exposure to popular culture. And I think you're actually doing a child a disservice by allowing them to live in a Christian bubble and not know that other people live differently and how they should confront temptations and where they should draw the line.

I agree with that 100% What's the point in hiding from the world, when these are the people Christ wants his love spread around to. I dance all of the time, and was going to continue professionally. If I couldn't dance, I would be soooo sad. It's a great way to relieve stress and express yourself. Alot of the venues where I go dancing have natural herbal energy drinks that are much better for your body, especially when dancing. I don't need any alcohol to get myself happy, just dancing will do it for me.