Challenging the Christian God

[Non sequitur]

To "test" God like this would be tempting God which is forbidden as examplified by the devil tempting the Lord in Matthew 4:1-11 (vs. 7 in particular). Despite the many signs & miracles Jesus Christ performed in the Gospels, He tells us that we must primarily deal with the moral & natural hardships of this life with our human mortal abilities seeking God in prayer & good will & deeds towards our fellow beings pursuing our salvation, extending hope for others, & then grace is given in ways in which God determines only through healings, good fortunes, blessings etc.

You are ridiculous.

God said I could test him in that way, no need to have faith to do so.

 

[Lukaris]

You are ridiculous.

God said I could test him in that way, no need to have faith to do so.

Well your arrogance outweighs your ignorance. I could care less if you disagree but you seem incapable of civil discussion so have a nice day.

 

[lucaspa]

I'm trying to find the answer to that simple question in your response...

You couldn't find it? Wow. How could you miss it? It's right there. Let me try:

Believers and unbelievers challenge God for understanding. Nothing bad happens. Apparently God views it as part of the give and take between entities.

If, OTOH, this challenge is not for understanding but just to deny God, then that would be a sin. Sin results in being cut off from God. Not lightning bolts, not even necessarily a trip to Hell. But being cut off from God is not good, either.

Let me put it this way (and I'd like to stress to all that this is given as an example, and not to incite anything or offend anyone, as it seems specific examples are needed to get a specific response), if I shouted, "F*** you God. I don't believe in you and challenge you to show me your existence," what would happen?

Probably nothing. After all, you aren't sincere. So God would probably ignore you. That's my best guess, of course. God can deal with it however He wants, of course.

However, if you are sincere and keep trying, the evidence is that God would start a dialogue with you:

"As to finding God initially, some say they came rather gradually to a realization that the God they'd learned about in books, songs, and from other people, is real. Others on the contrary battered the gates of heaven .. with very sceptical demands for answers, IF such a heaven existed. Their uncompromising intellectuality led them to try to pin God to the wall in ways that might be expected to elicit a lightning bolt rather than blessing. Their requirements for evidence and proofs were seldom met exactly as specified, but there was a moment in the process when they realized to their astonishment that they were wrestling with a real being who couldn't be contained in human descriptions or standards, not a concept or an abstraction. This God was something out of their control, something not fashioned in the image they had formed in their mind ... " Kitty Ferguson's The Fire in the Equations, pp 248- 251

 

[lucaspa]

Thanks.

Malachi 3:10 says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."

He doesn't appear to be requiring faith in him to test him.

You took the verse out of context to mean something it does not mean. Aren't atheists supposed to be critical thinkers? Isn't out-of-context quoting verboten to critical thinking?

Let's do the context, starting with verse 7:
"Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my decrees and failed to obey them. Now return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "But you ask, 'How can we return when we have never gone away?' "Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! "

This isn't about "testing" God. You have misunderstood the KJV. Instead, it's about Israel upholding its end of the covenant with God. The "test" is that, if Israel brings itself up to date on the tithes, then God will again be on their side.

BTW, if you continue to read the chapter, you will find exactly what the "blessings" are. You can start with verse 11:
"Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. [fn] Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "

So, I have a question for you: are you here to "win" a debate, no matter what methods you use? Or are you here for an honest exchange of views, with you being honest about what scripture says?

 

[lucaspa]

God said I could test him in that way, no need to have faith to do so.

No, God did not say that. You say that, using a false interpretation of a verse out of context.

But I see you are going to stick to your untruth. Sigh.

 

[Non sequitur]

Well your arrogance outweighs your ignorance. I could care less if you disagree but you seem incapable of civil discussion so have a nice day.

And nothing was lost...

 

[Non sequitur]

No, God did not say that. You say that, using a false interpretation of a verse out of context.

But I see you are going to stick to your untruth. Sigh.

I quoted it verbatim.

What spin should I have put on it?

 

[Non sequitur]

So, I have a question for you: are you here to "win" a debate, no matter what methods you use? Or are you here for an honest exchange of views, with you being honest about what scripture says?

I am not here to debate.

I ask I question, in response I get 10 questions about my question, then have to debate all the sh*t said in the 10 question-responses.


If you are saying I have to accept that Christians believe The Word to be honest, then I do.

If you are saying I have to accept The Word as true, to talk about The Word, then I wold already be Christian.

Understand?

 

[abysmul]

I quoted it verbatim.

What spin should I have put on it?

You have proven yourself to only be here to argue and/or insult. You took the quote out of context, you know you did, you are not wanting an honest discussion.

 

[Non sequitur]

You have proven yourself to only be here to argue and/or insult. You took the quote out of context, you know you did, you are not wanting an honest discussion.

No I didn't, no I don't and yes I am.

It's just easier for you to say that, so get to drop the whole thing.


Grats.

 

[abysmul]

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

 

[Non sequitur]

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

If you get to put any context on it, then the whole thing is pointless.

I'm not right, you're not right, we both may be right, blah blah blah...

 

[razeontherock]

He says test him.

If I told you that if you shot me, I would not die, it requires no faith in my words to test that claim.

You're trying to use an analogy I can relate to?

Sorry, I've never shot a weapon and I don't plan to. You still need to look at your Malachi verse in question and ponder how "testing" in this fashion requires Faith. Until you see that much, please don't deceive yourself into thinking you have any understanding of the passage.

ETA: [why in the world would anyone ever do what your Malachi verse says, other than Faith? G-d would view it as Faith.]

 

[razeontherock]

However, if you are sincere and keep trying, the evidence is that God would start a dialogue with you:

"As to finding God initially, some say they came rather gradually to a realization that the God they'd learned about in books, songs, and from other people, is real. Others on the contrary battered the gates of heaven .. with very sceptical demands for answers, IF such a heaven existed. Their uncompromising intellectuality led them to try to pin God to the wall in ways that might be expected to elicit a lightning bolt rather than blessing. Their requirements for evidence and proofs were seldom met exactly as specified, but there was a moment in the process when they realized to their astonishment that they were wrestling with a real being who couldn't be contained in human descriptions or standards, not a concept or an abstraction. This God was something out of their control, something not fashioned in the image they had formed in their mind ... " Kitty Ferguson's The Fire in the Equations, pp 248- 251

SPOT. ON.

 

[Non sequitur]

You're trying to use an analogy I can relate to?

Sorry, I've never shot a weapon and I don't plan to. You still need to look at your Malachi verse in question and ponder how "testing" in this fashion requires Faith. Until you see that much, please don't deceive yourself into thinking you have any understanding of the passage.

It's an exact analogy.


So, testing your god- oh, never mind, you are now moving the goal posts.

 

[razeontherock]

Asking you to consider the topic you raised is not moving the goalposts.