Challenging the Christian God

[Non sequitur]

What happens if one challenges the Christian god?

Are any of the consequences apparent and obvious and/or immediate, without needing some sort of interpretation to explain them?


Examples of interpretation would be, had a perfect day or a unknown and unexplained feeling.

Examples of apparent and obvious would be, lightning striking me on a cloudless day inside my house.

 

[jacks]

drich0150 has such a great answer, I'm deleting my flippant response!

 

[drich0150]

What happens if one challenges the Christian god?

To one degree or another all who believe, and those who do not, challenge God for understanding. This basic need for understanding is a challenge but not a sin.
It is when you marry this desire for knowledge with contempt or with a flare of pride that it becomes a sin.

Are any of the consequences apparent and obvious and/or immediate, without needing some sort of interpretation to explain them?

This sin is like any other. If it goes unrepented of then you will never know God, and will eternally be separated from Him in the next life.

 

[Non sequitur]

To one degree or another all who believe, and those who do not, challenge God for understanding. This basic need for understanding is a challenge but not a sin.
It is when you marry this desire for knowledge with contempt or with a flare of pride that it becomes a sin.

This sin is like any other. If it goes unrepented of then you will never know God, and will eternally be separated from Him in the next life.

I'm trying to find the answer to that simple question in your response...

I'm reading the beliefs of your religion as well as consequences of not repenting, but not a direct answer.


Let me put it this way (and I'd like to stress to all that this is given as an example, and not to incite anything or offend anyone, as it seems specific examples are needed to get a specific response), if I shouted, "F*** you God. I don't believe in you and challenge you to show me your existence," what would happen?

 

[Faulty]

He'll likely do for you the same thing He has done every other time you'd sinned against Him. He'd continue to let you draw breath and let your heart continue to beat, and in His mercy, give you yet more time to repent.

But one day that will be over, and they'll lower your body into the ground, and you, like the rest of us, will be judged.

On that day we'll all understand what was written in the Psalms, "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”, because some will be covered, but many will not.

 

[Non sequitur]

He'll likely do for you the same thing He has done every other time you'd sinned against Him. He'd continue to let you draw breath and let your heart continue to beat, and in His mercy, give you yet more time to repent.

But one day that will be over, and they'll lower your body into the ground, and you, like the rest of us, will be judged.

On that day we'll all understand what was written in the Psalms, "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”, because some will be covered, but many will not.

Thanks.

Malachi 3:10 says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."

He doesn't appear to be requiring faith in him to test him. Also, it would be rather silly to ask someone to test you, when you already believed them; no need or reason to test.

So, what blessings is he talking about?

I'm hoping it's not along the lines of, "Do something and something will happen," as we can't really know it was the direct result of anything, unless it was ultra-extraordinary.

 

[Sketcher]

Thanks.

Malachi 3:10 says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."

He doesn't appear to be requiring faith in him to test him. Also, it would be rather silly to ask someone to test you, when you already believed them; no need or reason to test.

So, what blessings is he talking about?

I'm hoping it's not along the lines of, "Do something and something will happen," as we can't really know it was the direct result of anything, unless it was ultra-extraordinary.

1) That's not the best example, because it's God inviting his people to test him in his faithfulness and provision.
2) If you don't think that takes faith, then either you've never had to balance the books before or your finances are the envy of just about everybody.

 

[pinkputter]

Let me put it this way (and I'd like to stress to all that this is given as an example, and not to incite anything or offend anyone, as it seems specific examples are needed to get a specific response), if I shouted, "F*** you God. I don't believe in you and challenge you to show me your existence," what would happen?

Say what you want to God because he already knows what you are thinking and what is on your heart before you even say it. Keeping this in mind, demanding that God show you his existence won't get you very far. Why not? It's explained in the bible. He says in the OT, "I Am who I say I Am." Meaning, I am God on My terms, not the terms of men.

Demanding God reveal Himself to you on your terms is similar to some one going up to an artist of a painting and demanding its "meaning" to them. It's like, "I don't give a **** about you, I just wanna know how it effects me. Can the painting mean (given subject) how to wash dishes?

And the Artist answers, "It can be...."

Having a relationship with Jesus is much like having a relationship with someone else. It is important you speak to them (prayer) and it is important you listen to them (an important way to do this is the Bible)

 

[visionary]

Pray like many here have... Lord, I believe, Help my unbelief...

 

[Non sequitur]

Pray like many here have... Lord, I believe, Help my unbelief...

I have, but it hasn't done anything.

And I don't think I can't pray to believe something, that I don't believe in, incorrectly. There would be no other way to pray for me to pray.

 

[visionary]

I have, but it hasn't done anything.

And I don't think I can't pray to believe something, that I don't believe in, incorrectly. There would be no other way to pray for me to pray.

Just looking for that mustard seed of faith that He plants in all of us.. including you.. which is probably the reason you are here on this forum.. I will be praying for the Lord to water this seed, and take away the rocks, weeds, and other things like hard grownd which is making it so hard for oyur faith to grow..

 

[Non sequitur]

He says in the OT, "I Am who I say I Am." Meaning, I am God on My terms, not the terms of men.

"John is who he says he is."

Something that proves itself, by making a claim about itself, can only prove... it made a statement.

Simply making a declaration about it's truthy-ness does not make it true.

That would be circular logic.

Demanding God reveal Himself to you on your terms is similar to some one going up to an artist of a painting and demanding its "meaning" to them.
It's like, "I don't give a **** about you, I just wanna know how it effects me. Can the painting mean (given subject) how to wash dishes?

And the Artist answers, "It can be...."

No, it's not like that at all. I didn't ask the artist how it effected me.

However, if I did he would say,

"If you are asking me, how does it effect your thoughts and perception of the world; I don't know because I am not you, that would be left to your interpretation of it. There is no right or wrong answer.

"If you are asking me, could it wash dishes; No, it can't wash dishes for you, since it lacks the properties and ability to do so."

"If you are asking me is it giving information on how to wash dishes; If you see it as doing so, then I suppose it does to you. Although I didn't try to paint it as a instruction manual for washing dishes and I find that interesting."

Having a relationship with Jesus is much like having a relationship with someone else. It is important you speak to them (prayer) and it is important you listen to them (an important way to do this is the Bible)

My current relationships do not involve non-tangible things.

I would find another analogy that would apply.

 

[Non sequitur]

Just looking for that mustard seed of faith that He plants in all of us.. including you.. which is probably the reason you are here on this forum.. I will be praying for the Lord to water this seed, and take away the rocks, weeds, and other things like hard grownd which is making it so hard for oyur faith to grow..

I'll be more than happy to keep you updated.

 

[drich0150]

I'm trying to find the answer to that simple question in your response...

I'm reading the beliefs of your religion as well as consequences of not repenting, but not a direct answer.


Let me put it this way (and I'd like to stress to all that this is given as an example, and not to incite anything or offend anyone, as it seems specific examples are needed to get a specific response), if I shouted, "F*** you God. I don't believe in you and challenge you to show me your existence," what would happen?

Outside of the limited shock value we place on your choice of words, your "challenge" follows the pattern I have already outlined.

 

[GadFly]

"John is who he says he is."

Something that proves itself, by making a claim about itself, can only prove... it made a statement.

Simply making a declaration about it's truthy-ness does not make it true.

That would be circular logic.

.

Circular logic does not mean it is true. But it does not mean it is false either.
Think about how logic works. You have a premise and then you make inferences that are true if these inferences relate back to the premise. The strength of the truthfulness rest on the certainty of the premise. If the premise is good, stable, unchanging, absolute your circle back to the premise is better and trustworthy.

The problem atheist have with logic is that their logic is never trustworthy because they have no premise worthy of trust. Their whole logic is always confused. They are the ones ever learning and never able to come to the truth. They are the ones the true Premise sends strong delusions into their lives because without an absolute premise, it is likely they will believe any foolish idea that comes down the road.The greatest joke on the atheists who think they belong to the superior thinking species on earth rejects the most self evident Premise in the universe. The atheist can only furnish one premise and it is himself and he will not be around any longer than the wind and is not nearly as dependable as the wind. Consciousnesses and existence has been around much longer than any atheist's mind and will be here when he is gone.

God is and will be here forever. What say you about that Premise? What premise do you guys have for reasoning? Let me help you guys, the only premise you have is an extreme circular reasoning premise called phenomenological reasoning and most of you guys know little about it. It is, however, the default philosophy of atheist who were beat to death in the ontological debate about God. It is their fall back position to the abyss of nothingness for a premise.

 

[Non sequitur]

Circular logic does not mean it is true. But it does not mean it is false either.
Think about how logic works. You have a premise and then you make inferences that are true if these inferences relate back to the premise. The strength of the truthfulness rest on the certainty of the premise. If the premise is good, stable, unchanging, absolute your circle back to the premise is better and trustworthy.

I agree, except for the second "inferences" part.

Testing, is what it is.


I infer gravity exists, so I drop a brick to test it.

I find my tests good, stable and unchanging, so I trust it to be true.

The problem atheist have with logic is that their logic is never trustworthy because they have no premise worthy of trust. Their whole logic is always confused.

I think we already established that demonstrable proof would the that premise.

I'm thinking that would make my whole logic rather un-shaky.

They are the ones ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

Accept demonstrable proof as true, until otherwise proven true?

Will I see you picketing the companies that are working on the cure for diseases?

Gonna tell them it's all stupid and they should accept some truth?

Stop that ridiculous "testing"?

They are the ones the true Premise sends strong delusions into their lives because without an absolute premise, it is likely they will believe any foolish idea that comes down the road.

You drank the Kool-Aid, so I have to also?

The greatest joke on the atheists who think they belong to the superior thinking species on earth rejects the most self evident Premise in the universe.

I'm sure Jesus is laughing with you.

(Please see my signature.)

The atheist can only furnish one premise and it is himself and he will not be around any longer than the wind and is not nearly as dependable as the wind. Consciousnesses and existence has been around much longer than any atheist's mind and will be here when he is gone.

Right....what's your point?

God is and will be here forever.

And boom goes the dynamite.

I knew you were gonna start asserting non-provable claims, sooner or later...

What say you about that Premise?

It's a crock?

It makes me giggle that you capitalized the "p"?

What premise do you guys have for reasoning?

We already established that. Demonstrable proof.

Let me help you guys, the only premise you have is an extreme circular reasoning premise called phenomenological reasoning and most of you guys know little about it. It is, however, the default philosophy of atheist who were beat to death in the ontological debate about God. It is their fall back position to the abyss of nothingness for a premise.

Well, there were 1,120 hits on "phenomenological reasoning".

The 1st two amazon books.

The 3rd one was titled: Developing improved metamodels by combining phenomenological reasoning with statistical methods

Um... I'll just move on to your next "comment".


I haven't been "beaten" in any philosophical discussion of the nature of being, existence or reality and fell back to an abyss.

I think you are projecting

 

[razeontherock]

He doesn't appear to be requiring faith in him to test him.

This shows how skewed your perception is. You could begin addressing that by considering how this does require Faith ...

 

[Non sequitur]

This shows how skewed your perception is. You could begin addressing that by considering how this does require Faith ...

He says test him.

If I told you that if you shot me, I would not die, it requires no faith in my words to test that claim.

 

[Lukaris]

He says test him.

If I told you that if you shot me, I would not die, it requires no faith in my words to test that claim.

To "test" God like this would be tempting God which is forbidden as examplified by the devil tempting the Lord in Matthew 4:1-11 (vs. 7 in particular). Despite the many signs & miracles Jesus Christ performed in the Gospels, He tells us that we must primarily deal with the moral & natural hardships of this life with our human mortal abilities seeking God in prayer & good will & deeds towards our fellow beings pursuing our salvation, extending hope for others, & then grace is given in ways in which God determines only through healings, good fortunes, blessings etc.

 

[elman]

What happens if one challenges the Christian god?

Are any of the consequences apparent and obvious and/or immediate, without needing some sort of interpretation to explain them?


Examples of interpretation would be, had a perfect day or a unknown and unexplained feeling.

Examples of apparent and obvious would be, lightning striking me on a cloudless day inside my house.

I think the only way to challenge a Creator that has commanded you to become a loving being is to refuse to be loving to others. The consequences of such a life style will be unhappiness in this life and no hope of a destiny beyond this life.