• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Challenge: What is Communist in the US?

Skeptic90

Epic Member
Dec 13, 2009
479
23
35
San Diego
✟23,243.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single

Yes, but there are different brands of communism. Heres a good list:
Marxism
Leninism
Trotskyism
Maoism
Juche
Left communism
Luxemburgism
Council communism · Titoism
Stalinism
Castroism
Guevarism
Hoxhaism
Anarchist communism
Religious communism
Christian communism
Eurocommunism
World communism
Stateless communism
National communism

I reject communism because it needs the element of competition which capitalism has. Socialism, communism, anarchism, capitalism: they are all ideas.

My point is why all the dismissal of opinion about communism. Like saying anything pro-communism is like a virus or something.

Think of it this way: once you are declared insane, then anything you do is called part of that insanity. Your protests are called denial, fears are called paranoia. Its a no win situation. Calling someone crazy is dismissive. Being communist is crazy.
 
Upvote 0

TheNewWorldMan

phased plasma rifle in 40-watt range
Jan 2, 2007
9,362
849
✟36,275.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

Oh, plenty of difference. But it's not really germane to contemporary American politics. We still have no serious political movement from the true Left. As has often been said before, political contests in America are pretty much between the center-Right and the center. The far Right is marginalized, and the far Left is pretty much restricted to tables handing out pamphlets on college campuses.

But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Real communism is not possible; Marxism is at odds with human nature. You will never have a defocused, decentralized dictatorship. But enough people have tried implementing their interpretation of it--and failed spectacularly--that people ought to stop trying it already.

The 20th century taught us rather conclusively that mixed economies are the best way to go. Mostly private ownership with public regulation. Works best.
 
Upvote 0

chaz345

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2005
17,453
668
58
✟20,724.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Why is there such a negative opinion of communism? Because, quite simply, no matter where it's been tried,on a large nation sized scale, no matter what flavor of it we're talking about, it's failed miserably.

I say large nation sized scale because in relatively small groups, it, or something very similar, can work quite well. I know they aren't a perfect example, but the Amish have a very socialistic/communistic way of doing things and it works. But it works because the group is small enough so that if you choose to slack off, you can see the negative results in the lives of people you know and care about.
 
Upvote 0

BoltNut

Newbie
May 8, 2010
2,151
360
San Diego, CA
✟26,576.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Thank you.

You're welcome.


(Re: Health Care Plan) Okay, the plan itself is not Socialist. The problem many can see is that the way it will be implemented will have "negative" results. Many health plans currently used by smaller businesses will no longer be able to be offered or utilized. Some businesses would rather pay the fines imposed by government for not having a health plan, since the fines are cheaper than the insurance premiums. Due to increased premiums caused by things like the "pre-existing condition" changes, etc, fewer options will be available or affordable. More and more people will end up on the government plan. Sort of like becoming "Socialized Medicine" by default. Granted, this is not a "Socialist" program as it stands. Let's say it is more fear as to what it may become.

No, the government is regulating resources, but not allocating them. It is relying on the free market to allocate the resources. This is not Socialism.

Looking at 'cap and trade' on the surface, I'd agree that it isn't "Socialist". I was stating that "some would make the case" that it could be seen as socialistic. I find that it is far too complicated to assign such a label. I, personally, just don't like the idea.


It would really depend on what the final plan consists of. The Waxman-Markey bill would be preferable to the Kerry-Boxer bill. The Kerry-Boxer bill would mandate reducing CO2 levels in 2050 by 80% and channel the money to "Homeland Security and Jobs Programs". The plan Obama envisions uses the money for alternative energy programs to reduce our dependence on oil. The biggest problem I see with cap and trade are the consumer cost estimates. Administration figures and figures from other annalists differ greatly.

But we are not. Nothing you mentioned was Socialist.

Nothing we have been discussing is 100% Socialist. When I say "socialistic", I'm saying that something has elements that appear to be socialist in nature. I'm speaking more in trend. The more government gets involved in things that have always been private, it's a 'trend' toward socialism. If this government did have policies that were indeed Socialist, we would basically be a country governed by Socialism. We can get really "close" to socialism without being Socialist. By using regulations, taxes, subsidies, entitlements and the like, we can have a situation where the result appears to some to be much like Socialism, but it wouldn't necessarily be Socialism. It's a little difficult to explain without using some generalities, but I hope my ideas are coming through clear enough.

No, Socialism requires government money, and if there is no money, it is unlikely the government would try to allocate resources or control industries.

All they have to do is raise taxes, borrow more or just print what they need. I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek here. If things continue as they are with big spending government programs, businesses won't be able to afford to stay in business. Government would almost have to step in to "save our economy".
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,862
6,529
64
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟354,797.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Actually, those are examples of "real" Communism, being places where it's actually been tried. It's only in the academic realm of spiffy ideas to be tossed around in a college classroom or a Vienna coffeehouse where it has any validity, not in the real world.

Communism is like Prohibition. It's a swell idea, but in real life, it won't work.

My point is why all the dismissal of opinion about communism. Like saying anything pro-communism is like a virus or something.

In my case, it's because Communism means living with nine other people in a three-room apartment with a leaky roof and bad plumbing, and working in a communal factory gutting fish for fourteen hours a day at six cents a week while the Party Commissar stands behind you to make sure you don't open your mouth against the working conditions.

That's what makes Communism a virus to me---a really nasty one. I want nothing to do with it.


I quite agree.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Many Socialists disagree. They believe that Russia under Stalin was a manifestation of totalitarian State Capitalism. And China today a 'Communist' country?? As for Cuba and NK, most modern Socialists also believe in democracy, something that these countries lack. There are few examples of 'real' authentic and working communism.


That's what Communism means to you. What Communism means to a Communist, however, might be quite different.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

While I do agree that Obama is on the political left, I do not believe that he is far enough to be classified as a 'Socialist'. His economic policies indicate an interesting, sometimes suggestive, relationship with business, but certainly not a 'Socialist' relationship. His social policies are sometimes even at odds with what most liberals believe (e.g. the gay marriage issue)! The most sensible approach is to take his policies for what they are, and then debate whether they are in the interests of the nation. Unfortunately, some Conservatives (not yourself) think that simply shouting the word 'Socialism' is grounds enough to terminate a policy or even a Presidency.

With regard to the Marxists that I spoke to it's unclear exactly whether they are Communists or Socialists. They identify themselves as 'Socialists' and rarely speak of 'Communism' itself per say. What I found interesting about them was how much they despised Obama - ironically something they share with disgruntled Conservatives. It's also quite amusing to watch: the Socialists accuse Obama of being yet another 'Capitalist thug', some Conservatives accuse him of being a Socialist or Communist. No one seems to care about the actual content of his policies; they care more for portraying his Presidency as representative of the opposition ideology.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BoltNut

Newbie
May 8, 2010
2,151
360
San Diego, CA
✟26,576.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married

I'm with you. I don't believe this stuff about being Communist. It's a bit "over the top". Just because he's a bit left of my own beliefs, doesn't make him Socialist either. Calling him a Capitalist thug is a real kick.

I find it interesting that my conservative brethren focus on Obama so much when, to me anyway, congress is loaded with many who are more "left" than he is. The Speaker of the House makes me want to puke every time I see her mug. She is downright scary.
 
Upvote 0
T

Tunderz

Guest
I disagree with your point that communism is a "very specific thing." Even the ten planks of communism are themselves concepts, principles which few "communist" countries have implemented to their fullest. That's the problem with these labels - they can be both used as accusation (on the basis of the principles, concepts being addressed) and in defense against such accusations (by applying very specific definitions to demonstrate technical non-compliance).

Indeed, your post demonstrates both fairly well - a rationale for those who would claim we are becoming "communist" (e.g. the examples you provide for each plank) and a reason for defending against such rationale by appealing to a specific technical definition (e.g. the 10 planks themselves).

In the realm of politics, or even religion for that matter, no one articulation or definition of ANY "...ist" or "...ism" will ever fully fit, or can ever fully fit - for the simple reason that no singular articulation can ever encompass all the variations that invariably exist.

For example - define "Christian." You'll get a different definition for as many people who make the attempt. Define "conservative" or "liberal" or "progressive" or "socialist" or "fascist" or... Who or what sets or defines the authorative standard for any of these - particularly when members who identify themselves as any of the above will themselves disagree on what the true standard is? Even if someone articulates a definition and many adopt it as the "standard" - there are many who identify themselves with the same name yet will adopt a different articulation as defining their particular view of same.

On this basis, it's just as easy for one side to make a charge of "...ism" and equally as easy for the other side to charge ignorance on the fomer - and both be essentially correct.

So to challenge those who claim things are "communist" with the stipulation that they demonstrate absolute adherence to a specific definition, which itself is necessarily subject to debate even among those who claim title to or knowledge of same, is little more than a canard and ruse for leveling ridicule upon them - which conveniently the OP allows.

Are we a "communist country?" Of course not. Not even communist countries are 100% communist countries - a convenient fact for some, an inconvenient fact for others - depending on the purposes of either.

Are influences at work in our country that can be labeled "communist?" Of course there are. C.F. the post quoted.

Are there persons in our country behind such influences that may or may not themselves be strictly "communist?" Sure there are. C.F. those who supported or promoted those things in the post quoted.

...all of which is why my first post in this thread was a simple "more word games..."
 
Upvote 0

Colin

Senior Veteran
Jun 9, 2010
11,093
6,889
✟122,403.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK - SNP

As a UK citizen I look on with amazement at some of the things said by Americans in the field of politics.
When President Obama was working to get the Health Care bill passed , crazy things were said about him.
In the UK we have had a National Health Service for more than 60 years. All the political parties here support it. Does that make the UK a Communist country and all it's politicians Communists ?
 
Upvote 0