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Challenge to Atheists on Morality

Ana the Ist

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Atheists, What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

What makes Harming others Objectively Wrong?

What makes Helping others Objectively Right?

What makes Love Objectively Right?

What makes Hatred Objectively Wrong?

5 simple questions.

Nothing. As an atheist I don't believe in objective morality... it doesn't exist. So my answer to each question is "nothing".
 
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Atheists, What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Humans have the same instinctual morality as many other animals. Canines, for example, know instinctively to protect their young, understand ownership (marking belongings - thou shalt not steal), etc. People who lack this innate morality are frequently labelled as sociopaths.

What makes Harming others Objectively Wrong?

Do you really think that the Hebrews needed to be told "thou shalt not kill"? You think there was rampant murder before they were told not to? Nonsense, the Hebrews knew murdering was wrong before the ten commandments. Humans have innate social morality.

What makes Helping others Objectively Right?

Similar to the above, humans have innate social morality that causes them to empathize with their fellow humans. The same thing is present in other primates and animals. Those who do not display this are exhibiting antisocial behavior.

What makes Love Objectively Right?

Romantic love or the love acted out by helping others?

What makes Hatred Objectively Wrong?

Hatred of what?
 
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Let's see where this will lead us...

My answers to all five questions: nothing. There is no objective right or wrong.

So according to you Harming people can be Right according to your worldview, as Morality is not "Objective" under your Worldview.

Moral values are not objective, consequences of moral choices are, how we value things is subjective.

If Moral Values are not Objective, then there's no such thing as Objective Consequences of Moral Choices as that would require Objective Moral Values for Objective Consequences.

So under your worldview of atheism, there would be nothing wrong with Hitler's actions,

however in Reality Hitler committed Objectively Wrong Actions, and therefore there are Objective Consequences.

Under your worldview Harming people wouldn't be Objectively Wrong.


Nothing. As an atheist I don't believe in objective morality... it doesn't exist. So my answer to each question is "nothing".

#1, Proof that Objective Morality doesn't exist? How is it Subjective? Demonstrate.

#2, Then According to your worldview Harming people can be Right, as under your worldview Morality is Subjective.


Humans have the same instinctual morality as many other animals. Canines, for example, know instinctively to protect their young, understand ownership (marking belongings - thou shalt not steal), etc. People who lack this innate morality are frequently labelled as sociopaths.

Other animals have nothing to do with Humans and that does not answer the question:

What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

the question was not "Does Objectively Morality exist?"

I know Objective Morality exists, and that instill in us are Objective Moral Values.

What I'm asking Atheists is What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Simple question.

Do you really think that the Hebrews needed to be told "thou shalt not kill"? You think there was rampant murder before they were told not to? Nonsense, the Hebrews knew murdering was wrong before the ten commandments. Humans have innate social morality.

Of course they knew it was wrong, even says it in the Bible, Romans 2:15 - "in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,"

Does not answer the question, What makes Harming others Objectively Wrong?

Similar to the above, humans have innate social morality that causes them to empathize with their fellow humans. The same thing is present in other primates and animals. Those who do not display this are exhibiting antisocial behavior.

The Question was not Do Humans have Objective Morals instilled in them?

That was not the question.

The Question was What makes Helping others Objectively Right


Romantic love or the love acted out by helping others?

The Latter.



Hatred of what?

Hatred of other human.

Overall you're dodging the question, I never asked whether or not Objective Morality exists,

I agree, Objective Morality Exists.

I'm asking you What Makes something Objectively Moral or Immoral.
 
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variant

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If Moral Values are not Objective, then there's no such thing as Objective Consequences of Moral Choices as that would require Objective Moral Values for Objective Consequences.

Consequences are always objective, they happen when you make choices, how we value the likely consequences of our actions is not in any way objective as it is based upon us, and is therefore subjective.

So under your worldview of atheism, there would be nothing wrong with Hitler's actions,

however in Reality Hitler committed Objectively Wrong Actions, and therefore there are Objective Consequences.

There are plenty of things wrong with Hitlers actions (they lead to all sorts of objective consequences that people don't like) just none of them are independent of human ideas.

Under your worldview Harming people wouldn't be Objectively Wrong.

No, it would be subjectively wrong.
 
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KitKatMatt

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Atheists, What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

What makes Harming others Objectively Wrong?

What makes Helping others Objectively Right?

What makes Love Objectively Right?

What makes Hatred Objectively Wrong?

5 simple questions.

1. Consent vs lack of consent

2. If they didn't consent to the harm, then it's wrong.

3. It's not "objectively right", but it is mighty nice to help others. Take it or leave it.

4. I don't think anything is "objectively right". Love is just a nice thing. Again, take it or leave it.

5. If you harm someone with your hatred in a non-consenting way, it's wrong. If not, continue hating all you want.

I may not be an atheist, but there's my answers.
 
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Ok, let me rephrase:

objective morality is defined by innate human morality.

Innate Human Morality/Instilled Morality is the Objective Morality.

Morality... is Morality.

If you're saying that Humans make up what is Moral, then it would not longer be Objective, it would be Subjective.

If you're talking about Innate Human Morality, that's just another term for Morality, Objective Morality.

Circular Argument, doesn't answer What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

It's as if you have this crutch for Atheism, simply answering the question.

Consequences are always objective, they happen when you make choices, how we value the likely consequences of our actions is not in any way objective as it is based upon us, and is therefore subjective.

There are plenty of things wrong with Hitlers actions (they lead to all sorts of objective consequences that people don't like) just none of them are independent of human ideas.

"That people don't like", so you're rendering Objective Consequences on what people like or don't like, that would make it Subjective Consequences as the Nazi's liked the consequences of Hitler's actions.

Your worldview is untenable for Morality.

No, it would be subjectively wrong.

It would be Subjectively Right under your worldview as well, rendering Morality pointless, under your worldview anything can be right and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Under your worldview, there would be nothing objectively Wrong, if someone decided that murdering their kids was ok, according to your worldview it could be right.

Your worldview of Atheism doesn't fit with Reality/Objective Morality.



1. Consent vs lack of consent

How does Consent/Lack of Consent determine what makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

2. If they didn't consent to the harm, then it's wrong.

What makes Non-Consent Objectively Wrong?

3. It's not "objectively right", but it is mighty nice to help others. Take it or leave it.

That's an Objective Standard right there, What makes it Nice/Right to help others?

4. I don't think anything is "objectively right". Love is just a nice thing. Again, take it or leave it.

Why is it a nice thing?

5. If you harm someone with your hatred in a non-consenting way, it's wrong. If not, continue hating all you want.

I may not be an atheist, but there's my answers.

What makes Non-Consenting Harm Objectively Wrong?

Not one Atheist in this thread has answered what makes something Objective Right or Wrong, nor have they proven Morality is Subjective.
 
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KitKatMatt

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Not one Atheist in this thread has answered what makes something Objective Right or Wrong, nor have they proven Morality is Subjective.

I don't think anyone can convince you either way :p
 
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variant

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"That people don't like", so you're rendering Objective Consequences on what people like or don't like, that would make it Subjective Consequences as the Nazi's liked the consequences of Hitler's actions.

The consequences of Natzi ideology are objective (their actions will lead to consequences) and how we view them is not.

Your worldview is untenable for Morality.

Untenable for making the claim that my values are objective features of the universe maybe.

It would be Subjectively Right under your worldview as well, rendering Morality pointless, under your worldview anything can be right and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

It doesn't make morality pointless, it means it is based upon human judgment.

I don't think human judgment is pointless at all, I think it is one of the most important things we do.

Under your worldview, there would be nothing objectively wrong with someone murdering my mother.

No, it would be wrong because we think it is wrong and don't like those consequences.

I am saying there is nothing in the universe to enforce our moral judgments other than us.
 
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Circular Argument, doesn't answer What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Objective morality is defined by innate social morality. Besides that I don't know what kind of answer to "what makes something objectively right or wrong" you want.

It's as if you have this crutch for Atheism, simply answering the question.

How is simply answering the question a crutch for atheism?
 
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Freodin

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So according to you Harming people can be Right according to your worldview, as Morality is not "Objective" under your Worldview.
Yes. And I assert that you, if you consider carefully, think the same.

What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

the question was not "Does Objectively Morality exist?"
If objective morality does not exists, there is nothing to make something objectively right or wrong.

I know Objective Morality exists, and that instill in us are Objective Moral Values.

What I'm asking Atheists is What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Simple question.
I know that objective morality does not exist. Every "objective moral" that people claim can be shown to be subjective / intersubjective and situational.
 
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I'd advise people to not waste their time here. This guy isn't interested in a debate but perpetuating a narrative. IIRC he's actually been banned before, perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm going to take this as Libel, as you're making claims/knowledge to my Mind/Intents.

Also, answer the topic.

I don't think anyone can convince you either way :p

You didn't even answer the questions, and you're assuming you "can't convince me" a cop out as you clearly cannot answer any of the questions, you evaded them in the worst most detectable ways imaginable.

You never answered What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong, all you did was repeat that Humans have Morals, of course they do, that's not the question, the question was What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Very rudimentary question.

The consequences of Natzi ideology are objective (their actions will lead to consequences) and how we view them is not.

All Actions lead to a Consequence/Effect.

"How we view them is not"

How you view something has nothing to do with Objective Morality.

Hitler viewed what he did as right, yet it was Objectively Wrong.

Untenable for making the claim that my values are objective features of the universe maybe.
It doesn't make morality pointless, it means it is based upon human judgment.

I don't think human judgment is pointless at all, I think it is one of the most important things we do.

Human Judgement is Subjective. One person could think what Hitler did was right while another person can think he was wrong.

If you have no Objective Standard, then you have no Right and Wrong, and anything could be Right and Wrong, erasing the use of the very words.

Subjective Morality is simply untenable.

No, it would be wrong because we think it is wrong and don't like those consequences.

Nazi's would think it's Right and they would Actually like the consequences, so according to your argument it would be Right.

See how your argument/subjective morality doesn't work?

Objective morality is defined by innate social morality. Besides that I don't know what kind of answer to "what makes something objectively right or wrong" you want.

Of course Objective Moral Values are Innate, that's not the question and it doesn't answer the question,

The question is: What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Very rudimentary.

How is simply answering the question a crutch for atheism?

#1, You never answered What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong, Asserting what we already know, that Moral is innate, doesn't tell us what Makes those Innate Moral Values Objective.

#2, Under Atheism there's no such thing as Objective Morality, you pretend as if there is Objective Morality in your worldview as a crutch, as your worldview is untenable.

Yes. And I assert that you, if you consider carefully, think the same.

Your worldview is therefore


If objective morality does not exists, there is nothing to make something objectively right or wrong.

Meaning your worldview is devoid of Morality as there would be No Objective Right or Wrong, Right or Wrong under your worldview could be anything. rendering Morality imaginary.

That atheistic worldview is nowhere found in Reality.

I know that objective morality does not exist. Every "objective moral" that people claim can be shown to be subjective / intersubjective and situational.

Then by all means prove Morality is Subjective and Not Objective as you claim.
 
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variant

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All Actions lead to a Consequence/Effect.

"How we view them is not"

How you view something has nothing to do with Objective Morality.

Hitler viewed what he did as right, yet it was Objectively Wrong.

I don't believe morality is objective, I think it is based on human judgment.

Human Judgement is Subjective. One person could think what Hitler did was right while another person can think he was wrong.

True.

If you have no Objective Standard, then you have no Right and Wrong, and anything could be Right and Wrong, erasing the use of the very words.

Subjective Morality is simply untenable.

I have plenty of standards, I just admit that they are subjective. Right and wrong do not cease to exist because they are based upon our judgments.

Nazi's would think it's Right and they would Actually like the consequences, so according to your argument it would be Right.

See how your argument/subjective morality doesn't work?

We had to enforce our standards on the Natzi's, nothing objectively did it for us.
 
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Of course Objective Moral Values are Innate, that's not the question and it doesn't answer the question,

The question is: What makes something Objectively Right or Wrong?

Very rudimentary.

Yes it does answer the question. You admit that objective moral values are innate, so then something is made objectively right if it is an innate social moral. I don't see how this fails to answer the question.
 
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Freodin

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Your worldview is therefore
I always wanted my worldview to be therefore.

Do you think that english grammar is objective?


Meaning your worldview is devoid of Morality as there would be No Objective Right or Wrong, Right or Wrong under your worldview could be anything. rendering Morality imaginary.

That atheistic worldview is nowhere found in Reality.
Nope. My worldview is devoid of objective morality. It still contains subjective and intersubjective morality. And it is found in all of reality. It is all that reality has to offer in terms of morality.

Then by all means prove Morality is Subjective and Not Objective as you claim.
As soon as you prove that it is objective, and that without objective morality, there is no morality at all.
 
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I don't believe morality is objective, I think it is based on human judgment.

Proof that it's based on Human Judgement rather than instilled?

I'm not going to blindly accept your claim that Humans make what's Right and Wrong.


Meaning that Morality being Subjective would render it Imaginary, your worldview doesn't have a such thing as right/wrong, that under your worldview anything could be right/wrong.

Your worldview is therefore untenable.


I have plenty of standards, I just admit that they are subjective. Right and wrong do not cease to exist because they are based upon our judgments.

Actually they do(I see that you needed to reassert yourself that Right/Wrong exist in your worldview, as a crutch for Atheism), if Anything can be Right/Wrong, then the terms are pointless, there wouldn't be a right/wrong, anything could be done under your worldview.

We had to enforce our standards on the Natzi's, nothing objectively did it for us.

When did we enforce our standards on the Nazi's? How do you know that these are our standards rather than Instilled standards?

Yes it does answer the question. You admit that objective moral values are innate, so then something is made objectively right if it is an innate social moral. I don't see how this fails to answer the question.

Being Innate in of itself doesn't make it Objective, the Innate values are Objective(Romans 2:15), however just being Innate doesn't automatically make them Objective, it happens that the Objective Moral Values are Innate/Instilled.

To be clearer, What makes those Innate Morals Objective?
 
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