Cessationism

[cajunhillbilly]

Actually they taught their view long before Dispensationalism ever appeared on the scene. The Reformed and Lutherans fight dispensationalism tooth and nail. It was going to Westminster Seminary that let to my final break with that school of thought. And here I am in Dallas, the heart of dispensationism. You should see how the local dispys react when I tell them I am an amillenialist.

 

[heymikey80]

Well, I'm covenantal, but I've noticed the opposition & attacks (particularly on this board) come from dispensationalists against covenantalists, not vice versa.

Cessation is simply that the miraculous gifts on people have ceased; not that they won't be taken up again, as Revelation clearly states.

Virtually every view of cessationism that's not spiralled into secular denial, is a view of practical cessation. It's based on:

• 1 Cor 12 and Hebrews 1 that the practical use of such things is reduced -- that there is less or even no reason for God to confer certain gifts, and that the gifts are not permanent by any means.
• Specific gifts aren't themselves required or obligating to God to give them.
• Miraculous gifts and signs were characteristic of Apostles, and thus accompanied them as conferring authority.
• Observation of Jesus' ministry and the point that Jesus' miracles often were used to identify Him as the Christ and as One with authority.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

yep it is the dispensationaists who attack a lot more than Reformed types do. They act as if any other view is bordering on heresy, inspite of the fact that it is a very recent development and not heard of before the 1800s. Go figure.

 

[josephearl]

I think that the ignorance of cessationist's is the only thing that justifies them not being labeled as a group that is attacking the sovereignty and integrity of Holy Spirit. He is giving you mercy.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

The above post seems to be close to violating the terms of use. We are not to question someone's faith or their motives. I would be very careful about calling men like BB Warfield, Charles Hodge, Charles Spurgeon, etc ignorent. They were very intelligent men and had what they felt were sufficient reason to preach and teach the view you don't agree with.

 

[TehMill]

To come at this from another angle "does the Holy Ghost still confirm the gospel?" if the answer to that is yes then I say He will confirm it to the fulness of the message preached.

For example evangelicals have to give up so many of their most precious doctrines in order to deny that healing is a provision in the atonement that Jesus made at Calvary to all who believe right alongside pardon and regeneration.

Matt clearly teaches that Jesus healed then all this was to fulfil the words of the Prophet Isaiah "Himself took our infirmities and carried our diseases" when did He take them? when "Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree" it is all one portion of scripture one prophecy [aye and a great deal more which is never proclaimed by more than 90 per cent of preachers]

If preachers do not preach it the people won't hear it and how can God confirm His word if it is not preached? they withold this part of the counsel of God unjustly and unwisely.

So if they deny Matt they are denying Sola scripture, the infallibility of the word, the immutability of God [His unchanging nature] and a whole lot more.

The true reason the Holy Ghost stopped confirming the word openly was because the church backslid into the idolatry of the eucharist which from the fathers [so-called] became the focal point of worship-pah of course the Holy Ghost stop working manifestly. At the same time the ministry became clergy based instead of congregational, how can the Holy Ghost work through a non participant body of Christ?

The church still IS in the main clergy [leadership] based what is needed is a second reformation.... of the ministry so that the Holy Ghost will work what gifts He chooses through which members He chooses.

You wonder why Protestantism keeps splintering, I say it is because the new wine [doctrine] was poured into old wine skins [ministry formations]

 

[Jazer]

CESSATIONISM

The Cessationist view in Christian theology

I had a friend who believed this. He died because he did not believe healing was for today.

 

[heymikey80]

I had a friend who believed this. He died because he did not believe healing was for today.

Still awaiting news of someone healing a friend that'd make a believer outta me.

I've no problem with God actually healing someone. That's not the same as cessation of a person gifted with miraculously healing someone. They're two different things.

Only secularists deny the existence of healing. Not cessationists.

Again, a misunderstanding of cessationism doesn't make it into something it's not.

 

[josephearl]

I had a back messed up that was totally healed by the laying on of hands. Also had a neck injury healed at a different time. I laid hands on a woman with a destroyed ankle from an accident, 3 operations and the doctors could do no more, God healed it. Not long ago laid hands on a man with fallen arches and he said they were healed. Laid hands on my friends son who had a huge bump on his shin and it went down right in front of us, really got his attention to. I could go on for hours and hours sharing these types of stories. Believe the Bible and escape the cessationists. They will poison your faith with their hard-hearts and the errors that honor their ancestors but denies the Lord.

Love ya, JE

I think the sin of those who deny the Holy Spirit his role in the church is greater, MUCH greater then Harold Campings. Escape the cessationists, their error will pollute your faith with a doctrine that honors their ancestors but denies Holy Spirits role in the life of the believer, the church and the world. Thank you so much Holy Spirit for keeping me safe from the so called reformed twisting of scripture and letting me get to know you. I am truly grateful and love you dearly. your friend, JE

 

[OzSpen]

Joseph,

I had a back messed up that was totally healed by the laying on of hands. Also had a neck injury healed at a different time. I laid hands on a woman with a destroyed ankle from an accident, 3 operations and the doctors could do no more, God healed it. Not long ago laid hands on a man with fallen arches and he said they were healed. Laid hands on my friends son who had a huge bump on his shin and it went down right in front of us, really got his attention to. I could go on for hours and hours sharing these types of stories. Believe the Bible and escape the cessationists. They will poison your faith with their hard-hearts and the errors that honor their ancestors but denies the Lord.

Love ya, JE

I think the sin of those who deny the Holy Spirit his role in the church is greater, MUCH greater then Harold Campings. Escape the cessationists, their error will pollute your faith with a doctrine that honors their ancestors but denies Holy Spirits role in the life of the believer, the church and the world. Thank you so much Holy Spirit for keeping me safe from the so called reformed twisting of scripture and letting me get to know you. I am truly grateful and love you dearly. your friend, JE

You've told us about the successful times of your praying, but you said nothing about when you prayed and nothing happened.

I am not a cessationist and I am convinced that the gifts of the Spirit continue, but it is not my business to declare that God must and will heal a person when I pray for him or her. I pray and it is God's sovereign will whether that person is healed.

I am disappointed that so few non-Pentecostal churches in my part of the world do not practice and teach their people to obey James 5:13-16:

Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (ESV).

The healing ministry of the church is part of God's plan of Christian obedience, but it is not my business or that of the church and elders to declare that God must heal every one for whom their is prayer and the anointing with oil.

God gives to the church this ministry that continues.

Perhaps some of you have ideas why the evangelical church is reluctant to practise James 5:13-16. Is it because of a reticence to be associated with some of the extremes of the Pentecostal-charismatic movement?

My view is that there will be people who engage in extremes in any kind of theological activity, but that does not exclude the biblical view of that practice. We have seen an extreme and erroneous example of this over the weekend with Harold Camping's failed prediction of the Rapture of the church on 21 May. This extreme does not prevent my being convinced by the biblical evidence that there will be a Rapture and only God the Father knows when that will be.

I am convinced that some evangelical churches are impoverished by their failure to obey James 5:13-16.

In Christ, Oz

 

[heymikey80]

I had a back messed up that was totally healed by the laying on of hands. Also had a neck injury healed at a different time. I laid hands on a woman with a destroyed ankle from an accident, 3 operations and the doctors could do no more, God healed it. Not long ago laid hands on a man with fallen arches and he said they were healed. Laid hands on my friends son who had a huge bump on his shin and it went down right in front of us, really got his attention to. I could go on for hours and hours sharing these types of stories. Believe the Bible and escape the cessationists. They will poison your faith with their hard-hearts and the errors that honor their ancestors but denies the Lord.

Love ya, JE

I think the sin of those who deny the Holy Spirit his role in the church is greater, MUCH greater then Harold Campings. Escape the cessationists, their error will pollute your faith with a doctrine that honors their ancestors but denies Holy Spirits role in the life of the believer, the church and the world. Thank you so much Holy Spirit for keeping me safe from the so called reformed twisting of scripture and letting me get to know you. I am truly grateful and love you dearly. your friend, JE

I'll make this simple.

Joseph V.I. Novenson.

Heal the hands.

 

[josephearl]

You've told us about the successful times of your praying, but you said nothing about when you prayed and nothing happened.

Your right I have not mentioned that aspect of prayer. I do not understand all the why's of the times when prayer for healing goes unanswered. I do know that I have prayed for years about some things before they occurred and some things have never happened. Of course the obvious reason for unanswered prayer and the reason I think is dominant is our unbelief. I also think the culture of unbelief is so vast that entire denominations are trapped by its power on this issue. I am sure there are other issues I myself am ignorant of, and the depth to which it has infested their( and mine own) theology is perhaps not fully perceived. What is to be done is a large question and I am still trying to answer that in my own life on a day to day basis as I encounter doubt, fear and unbelief assaulting my own convictions.

 

[OzSpen]

Your right I have not mentioned that aspect of prayer. I do not understand all the why's of the times when prayer for healing goes unanswered. I do know that I have prayed for years about some things before they occurred and some things have never happened. Of course the obvious reason for unanswered prayer and the reason I think is dominant is our unbelief. I also think the culture of unbelief is so vast that entire denominations are trapped by its power on this issue. I am sure there are other issues I myself am ignorant of, and the depth to which it has infested their( and mine own) theology is perhaps not fully perceived. What is to be done is a large question and I am still trying to answer that in my own life on a day to day basis as I encounter doubt, fear and unbelief assaulting my own convictions.

Joseph,

I am not a cessationist. I am convinced biblically that the gifts of the Spirit continue. However, we must remember that God is sovereign and that his answers to prayer may be yes, no, or later. However, I find no conflict in answering that God's sovereign will includes his healing and supernatural intervention when He decides - sovereignly.

I have to take that horrible drug, warfarin, every day of my life and have been doing it since 1983 when I had my first open heart surgery to have an artificial mitral valve inserted. I had a leaking heart valve from 3 childhood bouts of rheumatic fever. I have prayed many times for the Lord to heal that valve so that I no longer need that blood thinner, warfarin. God has chosen not to heal me and I thank Him for his sovereignty. He has a better plan for me than what my puny mind thinks. I would rather have physical healing now, but that is not God's will at this time and has not been for the last 28 years.

I have an autobiography by Richard Harvey that has a very brief chapter called, "The Flask Story". I could not find it on the www, so I have typed the entire chapter so that I can post it on my homepage when it is back on the www in a week or so. This chapter is in Richard H. Harvey 1977. 70 Years of Miracles. Beaverlodge, Alberta, Canada: Horizon House Publishers, chapter 11, pp. 63-66. It's the story of a miraculous example of answered prayer that happened in a chemistry class at Allegheny College, PA, when Richard Harvey prayed in class for a professor who would lecture against prayer in a series of meetings and then in chemistry class he was challenging God's ability to answer prayer (the professor was a Deist who did not believe in miracles or God's intervention in this world). Richard prayed and God miraculously intervened, based on God's promise,

“If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by my Father, who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:19).

If there is any interest by people to have this chapter posted, I can do it, but it is lengthy (4 pages in the book).

In Christ, Oz

 

[josephearl]

I do not understand the attitude of those who think one must be able to perform healing as a trick in order for them to believe in it. Healing is not an automatic given, for various reasons some people do not get healed at all or quit to soon when God wants them to learn about perseverance by pressing onward.Paul had an affliction that was not healed as did Timothy. Yet we see consistently throughout the Bible that God is willing to heal. But I will pray for your hands, I hope Jesus heals the problem for you but if he does it has little or perhaps even nothing to do with me and a whole lot to do with Him and His love for you.

 

[OzSpen]

I do not understand the attitude of those who think one must be able to perform healing as a trick in order for them to believe in it. Healing is not an automatic given, for various reasons some people do not get healed at all or quit to soon when God wants them to learn about perseverance by pressing onward.Paul had an affliction that was not healed as did Timothy. Yet we see consistently throughout the Bible that God is willing to heal. But I will pray for your hands, I hope Jesus heals the problem for you but if he does it has little or perhaps even nothing to do with me and a whole lot to do with Him and His love for you.

Joseph, I do not believe that God's healing or any of the signs God performs today, should be called a "trick".

As promised, the chapter from Richard Harvey's book is now online on my homepage.See "Richard Harvey, Dr. Lee, a flask and supernatural prayer". The book is out of print. I have sought permission to publish this chapter, but I have been advised that the publisher, Horizon Books, has gone out of business.

In Christ, Oz

 

[josephearl]

I speak in tongues and have experienced over 50 different languages I am sure. I have spoke in tongues I did not recognize, many of those as a matter of fact and assumed without fear they were angelic tongues. Some of the languages were Japanese and Chinese. I do not recall to many times of speaking in 'gutteral' languages as one person called them if ever at all. Its rather a bizarre uncomplimentary term and I would not think Holy Spirit is very excited about your low path terminology in speaking of His gifts. But those are your words and is your responsibility to give an account of in eternity not mine. I love Holy Spirit and all His ways are fine with me.

People who look long and hard at the scripture and come up with 'the gifts were for back in Bible days and are no longer needed' are ignorant and stubborn without a doubt. I have experienced every one of the nine gifts as far as I know and I can assure all those who struggle with the truth of a real God for today is the problem is you and not God or His word. You must believe to receive. Loyalty to ancestral traditions is at times a demonic stronghold that many of satans spiritual workforce work hard at in an allout effort to keep you looking to the past for truth instead of the Lord. You are really missing out on some of the best fellowship with God one can imagine by resisting the love of Christ as it flows through the gifts of the Spirit to those around you. They LOVE to do the stuff and so should we. It is written...
“Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” (1 Corinthians 14:1, NASB95)

What part of desire earnestly do you not understand? If you ask for bread do you expect Him to give you a snake? Quit wavering and either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree bad and its fruit bad for a tree is known by its fruit.

shalom, je