Evasion does not address this. If indeed ALL the spiritual gifts are still in force, then every church needs a healer with supernatural powers (regardless of denomination). And every hospital should be empty. When multitudes came to Christ for healing they were ALL healed. When the apostles were doing their miracles, the crowds were ALL healed.There could be a lot of reasons why "every church" doesn't have those with the gift of healing, other than Cessationism being true.
There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.Evasion does not address this. If indeed ALL the spiritual gifts are still in force, then every church needs a healer with supernatural powers (regardless of denomination). And every hospital should be empty. When multitudes came to Christ for healing they were ALL healed. When the apostles were doing their miracles, the crowds were ALL healed.
Can you explain this further and the source of the point?There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.
I don't think there is a direct correlation here, clearly the works of Christ do include miracles. The cessation question is actually centered in Corinthians 12-14 and just an understanding of redemptive history. I think the darkness he is talking about is the cross, many miracles followed the ministry of the Apostles for decades. Miracles still happen but they are not as common as they would have been during the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, Christ and the Apostles. Miracles confirmed the word that was going out, once the time of revelation had passed the miracles were not as common.Hi
I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.
The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.
I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.
Thanks
A little while back I undertook a fairly indepth study into what are signs, wonders and miracles so you might find the following notes that I produced during my analysis helpful - though I would not expect anyone to be able to digest it all under a few weeks.Can you explain this further and the source of the point?
There is a common misconception that the Office of Healings that the Father established for the local congregation (1Cor 12:28) functions the same way as the Apostles did when they were functioning under "Signs and Wonders", the two are not one and the same.
According to James 5 it seems that there can be times where someones sickness may be the result of a specific sin where they may only need to confess their sin to receive their healing. One of the obvious reasons that we are told to go to the Elders for prayer is that one of the Elders may already be aware of some potential sin which he can raise and have the issue dealt with; whereas another Elder might need to be functioning within the word of knowledge where the Spirit of God might reveal the sin so that it can be dealt with.
I would not dare saying Christians have a lying spirit.
"You can see actual healings taking place when you view video clips on Youtube. I have a DVD of 130 people who testify to healing of incurable conditions given up by medical experts. These people are not lying. Why should they?"
I have many people in cults and world religions make the same claims. In fact, Catholic Christians have video's of healing at sites related to Mary and their Saints.
Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
Smith Wigglesworth: Disqualified?
Please explain,
quotes:
Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)
Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never
healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written
about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?
http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf
what about these other sick faith healers?
Sick Healers?
Obviously you have never read Roberts Liardon's book of the complete teachings of Smith Wigglesworth. These are transcripts of all his sermons, that were given to Liardon by Wigglesworth's family. If you read just a few of those sermons you will know exactly what he believed and taught.
The article about Roberts Liardon was written 16 years ago and he is still widely respected today. So your point there is pretty irrelevant.Are you speaking tof the same Liardon as this below?
Evangelical pastor Roberts Liardon temporarily stepped down from his Irvine-based ministry this week after admitting to a "short-term inappropriate sexual relationship."
Pastor Takes Leave After Admitting to 'Moral Failure'
I read the book on Smith here, https://annointing.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/wigglesworth-prayer-power-and-miracles.pdf It lacks historical varification.
Back to my questions please.
Why did the Pentecostal Missionary Union ask Smith to resign?
"Graham Jeffs, a solicitor from England who is now an elder at St. James Church in Colorado Springs, attended church less than a half-mile from where Wigglesworth lived and preached. He recently gave me copies of the hand written correspondence between Smith Wigglesworth and the leaders of the Pentecostal Missionary Union (PMU) written after Wigglesworth had been accused of misconduct by two separate women at the peak of his ministry career."
Please explain,
quotes:
Wigglesworth prophesied a mighty restoration of the gifts of the Spirit and revival to start before the end of the twentieth Century. He is reputed to have said: ‘Australia you have been chosen by God for a great move of the Holy Spirit. This move of God will be the greatest move of God ever known in mankind’s history and will start towards the end of the 20th century and move into the 21st century. This move of God will start a great revival in Australia, spread throughout the whole world and usher in the second coming of Jesus. This will be the final revival before the coming of the Lord’.(1)
Note: There have been other revivals since then, therefore his was not the final revival before the coming of the Lord.
Despite all the wild unsubstantiated healing claims, Wigglesworth’s daughter, who assisted at his meetings, was never healed of deafness. Wigglesworth also suffered for years with gallstones and later with Sciatica. Much has been written about this man regarding claims of healings and miracles, but what did this man believe?
http://taministries.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Smith-Wigglesworth-The-Facts-v3.5.pdf
what about these other sick faith healers?
quotes:
Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .
0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.
1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.
2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up."If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.
3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.
4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.
I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ." The Tongue p. 43.I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.
5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.
6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.
7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)
"You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.
8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).
9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.
9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.
10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.
11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?
1. Robert Tilton, Word of Faith Televangelist - 2 divorces, multiple law suits, caught in many lies, utters many false prophecies, uses unscrupulous means to garner millions from God's "gullible."
2. Peter Popoff, Televangelist - a proven fraud (read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi)
3. W.V. Grant, Televangelist - convicted felon for tax fraud, a divorcee.
4. Leroy Jenkins, Televangelist - convicted felon for arson & assault.
5. Jimmy Swaggert, Televangelist - adulterer, opulent lifestyle while crying broke on television.
6. Marilyn Hickey, Word of Faith teacher - shameless use of charismatic trinkets (blessed cornmeal, oils, cloths, seeds, coins, etc.).
7. Marjoe Gortner, came from 3 generations of Pentecostal preachers. He laid hands on multitudes to give them the "gift" of tongues. . . yet he himself was not saved. He admitted this publicly, and made a movie showing him in action. Unsaved, yet seeming to flow in the miraculous.
8. Jim Bakker, convicted felon. Jim & Tammy lived high off the hog for many years. Later they divorced, and in jail the Lord seems to have dealt with Jim and I think he has repented.
9. E.W. Kenyon, divorced his wife yet taught that faith is a law that works by another law, the law of love! We are told by WOF teachers that Kenyon was a man of faith and power - but how could his "god-kind-of-faith" been in operation if he could not even love his wife properly?
I have no reason to believe that these above have been made up.
In fact, you will see the same Cognitive Dissonance in Christian Science surrounding Mary Baker Eddy. Rarely, sources provided by a family are accurate. Historians like myself read such material with a critical eye and view it as faith history aka false history.
When I was reading through Oscarr’s post (129) I thought that the use of ‘lying spirit’ might be a bit strong for a general forum, but still, I would have to agree with Oscarr that there are certainly more than a few influential celebrity ministries out there where their strong and aggressive form of hardcore-cessationism does seem to fit this type of descriptor; but this does not mean that all those who hold to the cessationist worldview are being deceived by lying spirits as I know that family ties, tradition and indoctrination can easily isolate many from the truth, be it with historical, political and cultural truth or with Biblical doctrine, which is something that we all become victim to from time to time as none of us are immune to these sort of strong influences.I would not dare saying Christians have a lying spirit . . . . . . I have many people in cults and world religions make the same claims. In fact, Catholic Christians have video's of healing at sites related to Mary and their Saints . . . . . . . what about these other sick faith healers? Sick Healers?
When I was reading through Oscarr’s post (129) I thought that the use of ‘lying spirit’ might be a bit strong for a general forum,
Possibly, but I have never been known for pulling my punches during a debate. I got into trouble on one thread and got my post deleted because I didn't realise that one could cast out demons on CF!
I was brought up by a father who was a master debater. He was cunning. He would prod my brother and me until we started shouting at him. Then he would say that we had lost the argument because we raised our voices!
But I get passionate over some issues because there are so many misinformed folks saying rubbish that needs to be challenged. Using a softly softly approach can result in being fobbed off. Love sometimes has to be direct and can feel like the silver bullet. Doesn't Proverbs say that the wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy? Jesus called Peter Satan at one stage when Peter was trying to stop Him doing what He was sent here to do.
but still, I would have to agree with Oscarr that there are certainly more than a few influential celebrity ministries out there where their strong and aggressive form of hardcore-cessationism does seem to fit this type of descriptor; but this does not mean that all those who hold to the cessationist worldview are being deceived by lying spirits as I know that family ties, tradition and indoctrination can easily isolate many from the truth, be it with historical, political and cultural truth or with Biblical doctrine, which is something that we all become victim to from time to time as none of us are immune to these sort of strong influences.
Agreed
Where I would differ from Oscarr is with ‘knowledge and experience’, which is how I am redefining what Oscarr actually said.
I wonder if you misunderstood, or I might have expressed it unclearly. What I was countering was the difference between having person friends who were actually there when the miracles happened, and just reading about them in a book or in an article which said that there was no objective evidence that the miracles were actually genuine. Eye witnesses to events is the strongest evidence that can persuade a judge or jury in a court of law, so in the same vein, eye witnesses to miracles are more compelling evidence than people writing about them yet never having witnessed a miracle themselves.
When I pray for a woman with an acute back problem where she can hardly walk without pain and then right afterwards she tells me that the pain has gone, and a week later bounding out of her car, and over the street to me saying that she hasn't felt any pain all that week, is more compelling evidence against cessationist teaching than anything else I know.
When I was saved as a teenager, this was within a cessationist congregation where my associations with other congregations and individual Christians were founded completely within the cessationist ethos; from my earliest recollections my only association with a Pentecostal or charismatic was with my few encounters with the Pentecostal wife of one of our members, where she attended the local AoG and her husband with our own.
So in spite of not having any associations with Pentecostals and where I did not even know of any Pentecostal ministries (pre-Satellite TV), it was after a number of months that I started to compare the church life that was around me with what I reading within the Scriptures with how the early Church seemed to be experiencing something that we were not. So my awakening came from my reading of the Scriptures and even though I could not make all that much sense out of what I was reading in places such as Acts and First Corinthians, I at least realised that something was not quite right with what was around me.
Faith comes by hearing or reading the Word of God. Sounds like the Holy Spirit was speaking to you through the Word into your spirit, giving you the conviction which appeared like an uncomfortable feeling about what was around you.
So after about twelve months when I started my first job and bought a car I started to buy and read books from our cities only Christian Bookshop at that time, where many of them were written by these Charismatics. So for me, it was the Word before experience though when I started to experience what apparently many millions were also experiencing, then the Word began to make more sense.
It seems that we were pretty much in the same situation. During my early years, having heard about as many variations and opinions on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 from various Sunday platforms I came to the realisation that most speakers had very little understanding of what they were speaking on. So in 1992 I began to sit down in an attempt to define what First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 had to say on the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit through both the Church and the individual Believer.Even though I was converted in a Pentecostal church, I became skeptical for a long time about healing because I saw so many being prayed for and not healed. After many years of that, I decided to settle the issue once and for all. I went to my favourite second hand Christian bookshop and bought hundreds of dollars worth of books on healing from all the major authors and healing ministries. I also went on Youtube and watched all the healing ministries and saw how they operated. Even watching the videos with people being healed in front of my eyes, I still had thoughts that these healings weren't real.
It was when I turned away from the experiences in my church that made me skeptical and decided to believe the gospels and acts, and then put that belief into practice, that results started to happen. There hasn't been a flood of healing in my ministry, but there have been enough to encourage me that healing is for today and Jesus can heal folks through my faith.
Here’s where we would disagree as I do not believe that we are called to minister in the same manner as Jesus did. But I will add in my bit over in the Charismatic forum where you opened up a thread on signs and wonders link.The best results have been when I ministered healing in exactly the same way Jesus did.
It seems that we were pretty much in the same situation. During my early years, having heard about as many variations and opinions on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 from various Sunday platforms I came to the realisation that most speakers had very little understanding of what they were speaking on. So in 1992 I began to sit down in an attempt to define what First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 had to say on the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit through both the Church and the individual Believer.
Up until the late 1980’s most books that were written on the role of the Holy Spirit within the Church were based more on personal testimonies and even though they were often encouraging they lacked the necessary theological reflection that we need to be able to connect to the Scriptures. Since this time there has been an incredible about of Biblical commentary on the things of the Spirit which is what I have concentrated on over the past 15 years or so.
Here’s where we would disagree as I do not believe that we are called to minister in the same manner as Jesus did. But I will add in my bit over in the Charismatic forum where you opened up a thread on signs and wonders link.
Why is there so little if any of the supernatural gifts in the lives of Christians? I accept that they are found in church history, but they seem very seldom. Why aren't they around, even among Christians who believe in them and seek them? I have been to charismatic churches and it all strikes me as make-believe. People faking 'tongues' and giving 'words' that are from their own imagination. Anyone who will argue these things are real has no credibility (so if that's you--I'll disengage--because that is just wanting something to be real so much that you convince yourself it's real). But I am interested--if they are supposed to be normative, where is a church like the Corinthian one, where these things flow, where even unbelievers can confess that the real thing is at work?I will open up a thread there. It will be an interesting discussion and I can share more fully on what I have learned.
I might also ask where the church is, where people drop dead for lying to the Holy Spirit about how much money they're giving to the church, as happened to Ananias and Sapphira? And where are the churches where even Jesus Himself wouldn't do miracles because of their unbelief?Why is there so little if any of the supernatural gifts in the lives of Christians? I accept that they are found in church history, but they seem very seldom. Why aren't they around, even among Christians who believe in them and seek them? I have been to charismatic churches and it all strikes me as make-believe. People faking 'tongues' and giving 'words' that are from their own imagination. Anyone who will argue these things are real has no credibility (so if that's you--I'll disengage--because that is just wanting something to be real so much that you convince yourself it's real). But I am interested--if they are supposed to be normative, where is a church like the Corinthian one, where these things flow, where even unbelievers can confess that the real thing is at work?
People who want to argue that these things haven't ceased--I don't want to hear arguments--I want to see where these gifts are, if they are still here. Can you only tell me reports in books, or can you show me where these things actually happen?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?