Cessation

[JSynon]

Greetings,

I was wondering if one of you Baptist fellows could provide me with a cessationist argument.

Thanks!

 

[BT]

Greetings,

I was wondering if one of you Baptist fellows could provide me with a cessationist argument.

Thanks!

Happy Birthday!

I'll give you a couple of quick ones

1 Timothy 5:23
2 Corinthians 12:8
1 Corinthians 13:10

There there are years of church history to look at, up to 1900.

That ought to keep ya busy.

 

[JSynon]

Thanks BT!
I'll check those verses out. Exactly what parts / times of church history should I research?
Do you have anything specifically about speaking in tongues?

 

[Andyman_1970]

I've looked into this a bit several months ago. For me The verses used to backup the cessasionist view for me are a stretch.

Sometimes I think we try to put God in our "box" of understanding and sit back and "know" we have Him all figured out (not that cessasionist do this). I guess I've come to a place where I realize God can do anything at any time He choses. Now that said, I am VERY skeptical (I'm from Missouri you're going to have to "Show Me") when it comes to tongues. Anyway that's just my $.02 worth.

 

[kayanne]

I was wondering if one of you Baptist fellows could provide me with a cessationist argument.

Could you explain what your question is about? The only context I've ever heard the word "cessation" is in regard to someone trying to stop smoking.
Yep, I'm all for that!! (cessation, not smoking!)

 

[rural_preacher]

Happy Birthday!

I'll give you a couple of quick ones

1 Timothy 5:23
2 Corinthians 12:8
1 Corinthians 13:10

There there are years of church history to look at, up to 1900.

That ought to keep ya busy.

I'm just curious what I Timothy 5:23 and 2 Corinthians 12:8 have to do with cessationism.

Cessationism is the belief that certain spiritual gifts - the "sign gifts" - ceased after the completion of the New Testament writings and the passing away of all the Apostles. Usually those gifts are considered tongues, interpretation of tongues, the individual gift of healing (God still heals people today according to His will...just not through one who has the gift of healing) and prophecy (new revelation from God)...the job of the modern "prophet" is that of proclaim the already revealed Word of God.

Personally, I take a cautious position of cessationism. Like Andyman said, we must be careful not to put God in a box. However, I do not believe the modern tongues movement is anything like the tongues we see in Scripture.

 

[BT]

I've looked into this a bit several months ago. For me The verses used to backup the cessasionist view for me are a stretch.

Sometimes I think we try to put God in our "box" of understanding and sit back and "know" we have Him all figured out (not that cessasionist do this). I guess I've come to a place where I realize God can do anything at any time He choses. Now that said, I am VERY skeptical (I'm from Missouri you're going to have to "Show Me") when it comes to tongues. Anyway that's just my $.02 worth.

For me these verses give a compelling and perfectly sound illustration of cessation.

There are more arguments for cessation than these... I just wanted to give him a couple to start with...

 

[Carrye]

Cessationism is the belief that certain spiritual gifts - the "sign gifts"

Are these equated with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

And Kayanne: I've only heard of cessation with regard to smoking as well.

 

[BT]

I'm just curious what I Timothy 5:23 and 2 Corinthians 12:8 have to do with cessationism.

Cessationism is the belief that certain spiritual gifts - the "sign gifts" - ceased after the completion of the New Testament writings and the passing away of all the Apostles. Usually those gifts are considered tongues, interpretation of tongues, the individual gift of healing (God still heals people today according to His will...just not through one who has the gift of healing) and prophecy (new revelation from God)...the job of the modern "prophet" is that of proclaim the already revealed Word of God.

Personally, I take a cautious position of cessationism. Like Andyman said, we must be careful not to put God in a box. However, I do not believe the modern tongues movement is anything like the tongues we see in Scripture.

Hi pastor! Thanks for the definition of cessation. I do not put God into a box either, but I know what His word says and I can see the evidence for myself. Let me share a short story for the people on CF about one experience with the modern day tongues movement. I live in a community which is surrounded by dutch mennonites (dutch speaking that is). So there was an evangelical fellow who waltzed into the church one day and decided to bring up the whole tongues issue with our pastor. So the pastor let him go on for a while about his "gift" of speaking in tongues etc. After a few minutes the pastor stood up and put on his jacket. The fellow was a bit confused... The pastor simply said to him, 'Let's go out into the dutch mennonite community, and you can use your gift of tongues to glorify God to them and witness to them in their own language, since none of them speak English, and neither of us speak dutch (he apparently knew the fellow pretty well).' And so the debate ended.

If you wanted to go experientially then we could talk about several of the missionaries who decided to head to a foreign field without studying the language (expecting to use the gift of tongues that they thought they had), and promptly returned after the foreign customs agents looked at them as if they were mad. Luckily many of these stories end with the missionaries returning home to learn the language first and then heading back in.

Then you can talk about how, when confronted with the falsehood of "tongues", the normal response is that it is 'a heavenly language', or even more ridiculous the notion that it is an 'angelic language'. But then you have to spend time dealing with the supposed "proof texts" that are ripped right out of context and ascribed a new meaning.

Then you can talk about the Biblical examples of tongues, who they were for, what the purpose of them were, what they were, why they started when they did, why they ended when they did.

Then you can talk about the modern day disorder of tongues in chiefly the charismatic movement. And you can question on how they can be justified as a "gift from God" when they are absolutely opposed to the Biblical usage and instructions relating to tongues.

Then you can talk about the false prophecies that are directly linked to the so called "tongues" in churches, and you can question whether or not God is giving out gifts that result in false prophecies.

And you can go on and on and on and on

Having come from the Charismatic church, through the Pentecostal church, finally to a Baptist church. The existence of the gift of tongues is probably the doctrine or issue that I've studied most (next to calvinism, but that's another story).

As for

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

and

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

well those are pretty standard illustrations that the sign gifts had ceased. The argument is that if there were still sign gifts, why in the world would Paul tell Timothy (his 'son in the faith') to use natural medecines? Why in the world would Paul pray three times to the Lord for relief? Why wouldn't you just have someone heal you if these things were still going on, and were meant to continue?

I'm glad I didn't have to pull out the epistles by Peter and James to further show cessation. I am aware of the standard responses to "why have the sign gifts ended", and they are valid but some people just don't want to hear them. So it becomes necessary for us to find ever more examples and illustrations, because with every "standard" defense there is a "standard" argument, and I personally grow tired of running around in circles...

 

[BT]

Are these equated with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

And Kayanne: I've only heard of cessation with regard to smoking as well.

The sign gifts were certain of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... like tongues and miracles.. Some of the gifts in the early Church were "sign" gifts that were given by the Spirit to authenticate the Apostles, and prove to the nation of Israel that God was moving/directing. These gifts had a limited purpose, a limited time frame, and a limited people (only certain ones had them). John McArthur has a great series about the sign gifts, I believe it is one of his Bible studies and I think it's called "What ever happened to the Holy Spirit". In the study he outlines the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit both in the early church and in modern day Christianity...

 

[Carrye]

The sign gifts were certain of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... like tongues and miracles.. Some of the gifts in the early Church were "sign" gifts that were given by the Spirit to authenticate the Apostles, and prove to the nation of Israel that God was moving/directing. These gifts had a limited purpose, a limited time frame, and a limited people (only certain ones had them).

Are you saying that the gift of tongues doesn't exist at all any more, or that it's of a different kind (genus) than that experienced by the Apostles? If not at all, how does one account for the experience of tongues by modern people?

And I'm guessing that your reference to miracles is in regards to an individual person performing an individual miracle, right? Like when people came to Christ or the Apostles to be healed, etc.

John McArthur has a great series about the sign gifts, I believe it is one of his Bible studies and I think it's called "What ever happened to the Holy Spirit". In the study he outlines the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit both in the early church and in modern day Christianity...

What's his distinction - where does he see the difference between patristic and modern times?

 

[BT]

Are you saying that the gift of tongues doesn't exist at all any more, or that it's of a different kind (genus) than that experienced by the Apostles? If not at all, how does one account for the experience of tongues by modern people?

Yes I would say that the gift of tongues doesn't exist at all as it did in the book of Acts etc.

The experience of tongues by modern people is false. It is not the gift of tongues as seen in the New Testament. It is the result of suggestion, being taught to "jibber jabber". Some teach that tongues (in our age) is the sign of the Baptism of the Spirit... which causes many to convince themselves that they are missing something if they do not speak in tongues.. so they pray and pray and pray for this gift until eventually they either give up or just start mumbling and call it tongues (that is my personal experience).

And I'm guessing that your reference to miracles is in regards to an individual person performing an individual miracle, right? Like when people came to Christ or the Apostles to be healed, etc.

Yes like Peter healing the lame man at the gate, Paul healing the sick with his shadow etc. These miraculous gifts do not exist today. They ended with the office of apostle. (Having the gift of healing etc.)

What's his distinction - where does he see the difference between patristic and modern times?

His distinction is in the end of the Apostolic office. There are no more Apostles hence there are no more gifts, which were given to the Apostles or those to whom the Apostles interacted with... It's a good study. Mc Arthur is a phenomenal Bible teacher (IMHO).

 

[Carrye]

Thanks for the reply, BT. This is definitely an interesting idea, and not one I would have thought Baptists to hold.

One more question: Does Mr. McArthur speculate as to why these gifts ended with the Apostles, and weren't passed on through either Apostolic Succession or to the rest of the Faithful?

 

[BT]

Thanks for the reply, BT. This is definitely an interesting idea, and not one I would have thought Baptists to hold.

One more question: Does Mr. McArthur speculate as to why these gifts ended with the Apostles, and weren't passed on through either Apostolic Succession or to the rest of the Faithful?

No problem. While I can't speak for all Baptists this is the general or majority view.

He doesn't speculate as much as exegete the reasons. We believe that the Bible teaches that the sign gifts would (and have) pass(ed) away. If I recall correctly he refers to some of the church fathers as well who noted that the certain "sign" gifts were not in effect during their lives. I don't remember which he quotes offhand or truly if he does in that book. However many people do use examples of the early church fathers' writings to show that the sign gifts did not exist at those times. In fact it is quite common knowledge that the gift of tongues did not exist at all until 1900. So another cessation argument is, why did they come back all of a sudden, where is the Biblical teaching on a re-emergence. Most Pentacostals and some Charismatics will not contend that the sign gifts have always been, rather they teach that they "came back"....

 

[Andyman_1970]

Actually, I found (although I can't quote the source off the top of my head, I think it may have been my Systematic Theology book by Erikson) that through the history of the Chruch the "gift" of tongues has popped up on a semi-regular basis, be it in very obscure places, but it has been documented throughout the history of the church.

Again, let me be perfectly clear, I am VERY skeptical with the "normal" gift of tongues that we hear thrown around so much. I personally believe the gift exists today, however, I do not think it is a "sign" you are filled/baptized in the Holy Spirit, and I believe it is the easiest of gifts to "fake". More often than not, I believe that those who think they have spoken in tongues have just gotten caught up in an emotional experience.

 

[rural_preacher]

Most Pentacostals and some Charismatics will not contend that the sign gifts have always been, rather they teach that they "came back"

Pentecostal/Charismatics teach that around 1900 there was the "first wave" of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Then around the 1970's there was a "second wave". Now many are teaching that a "third wave" has begun. Each is marked by the appearing of various miracles and gifts (the first being tongues and the baptism of the Spirit). There is absolutely no biblical support for any of these waves.

BT, I have really enjoyed reading your explanations. I think you are providing an excellent education for many. Although I have been a baptist my whole life, God gave me the privilege of working for 4 years on the staff of a Pentecostal college at one point in my life. That was a real eye opener! I embrace many of those that I worked with as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I think that they have been very misled concerning spiritual gifts.

One of the things I heard a lot while working there was that they envied baptists for our strong knowledge of the Bible. They readily admit that their churches rely on experience and the "moving of the Spirit" rather than on solid Bible teaching. While at that college I had the privilege of opening God's Word to many who had grown up in church but had very little Bible knowledge at all.