Certainty Jesus Returns No Later than 2023

NGC 6712 said:

No, that is exactly what we don't need. And I am sure by 'bring truth back' you mean your interpretation of "truth", whatever the heck that means.

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Amen to that. Fire and brimstone preaching is the antithesis of the gospel.

TorahxKeeper said:

Your are right, maybe I should have not worded it that way, forgive me if I have offended you. That is not my intention.

Yes I do understand that all denominations do not see it that way, and it is that common ground I am seeking.

If you read my other post you would notice I mentioned I was a Christian for over 20 years, I have been in allot of congregations from different denominations.

It's heartbreaking to see the division amongst Churches, I guess I am just hoping for some unity between them. Especially now as we are on the threshold of Jesus return.

What we need is an old fashion revival within the Churches, and bring truth back to the pulpits. Bring back some of those Ole' Timers striking fear into the congregations with some fire and brimstone Preachin' A-MEN?

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We've always been on the threshold of Jesus' return. He's as likely to return tomorrow as He is ten thousand years from now. That's the point, we don't know the day or hour, and it's not our business. Our business is being faithful to Him.

And we can do without "fire and brimstone Preachin'".

I'd much rather the Gospel be preached, as the Apostle says, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

That's not happening though. Churches seem to be preaching just about everything except the Gospel.

They're preaching about Israel, they're preaching about the "end times", they're preaching about finances, they're preaching about how we can have our "best life now", they're preaching against "the gays", they're preaching about America, they're preaching against Communism, they're preaching against Capitalism, they're preaching about Hell, they're preaching about Heaven.

Just about the only thing that seems to be missing is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and Risen.

Screw revival. How about we just start preaching the Gospel. Not the faux gospel of moralism, or spiritual empowerment, or other various theologies of glory; but real Gospel.

"God demonstrates His love for us that even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

"For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them."

et al.

In other words, instead of going 19th century "old", let's go really old. You know 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... 16th, 17th century old.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

We've always been on the threshold of Jesus' return. He's as likely to return tomorrow as He is ten thousand years from now. That's the point, we don't know the day or hour, and it's not our business. Our business is being faithful to Him.

And we can do without "fire and brimstone Preachin'".

I'd much rather the Gospel be preached, as the Apostle says, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

That's not happening though. Churches seem to be preaching just about everything except the Gospel.

They're preaching about Israel, they're preaching about the "end times", they're preaching about finances, they're preaching about how we can have our "best life now", they're preaching against "the gays", they're preaching about America, they're preaching against Communism, they're preaching against Capitalism, they're preaching about Hell, they're preaching about Heaven.

Just about the only thing that seems to be missing is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and Risen.

Screw revival. How about we just start preaching the Gospel. Not the faux gospel of moralism, or spiritual empowerment, or other various theologies of glory; but real Gospel.

"God demonstrates His love for us that even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

"For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them."

et al.

In other words, instead of going 19th century "old", let's go really old. You know 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... 16th, 17th century old.

-CryptoLutheran

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ViaCrucis said:

We've always been on the threshold of Jesus' return. He's as likely to return tomorrow as He is ten thousand years from now. That's the point, we don't know the day or hour, and it's not our business. Our business is being faithful to Him.

And we can do without "fire and brimstone Preachin'".

I'd much rather the Gospel be preached, as the Apostle says, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."

That's not happening though. Churches seem to be preaching just about everything except the Gospel.

They're preaching about Israel, they're preaching about the "end times", they're preaching about finances, they're preaching about how we can have our "best life now", they're preaching against "the gays", they're preaching about America, they're preaching against Communism, they're preaching against Capitalism, they're preaching about Hell, they're preaching about Heaven.

Just about the only thing that seems to be missing is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and Risen.

Screw revival. How about we just start preaching the Gospel. Not the faux gospel of moralism, or spiritual empowerment, or other various theologies of glory; but real Gospel.

"God demonstrates His love for us that even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

"For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them."

et al.

In other words, instead of going 19th century "old", let's go really old. You know 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... 16th, 17th century old.

-CryptoLutheran

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QFT

watchfulChristian said in post #289:

Ps. 90.10 says 70 to 80 so 75.

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Ps. 90.10 shows a temporal generation may not pass (Mt. 24:34) (i.e. die off completely) until 70 or 80 years (Ps. 90:10), while Gen. 6:3 shows it could take 120 years.

2022 is 75 years from 1948.

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Mt. 24:34 could mean the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43) won't pass (i.e. die off completely) until the future tribulation & 2nd coming of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-19 are fulfilled. As was pointed out above, a temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Ps. 90:10), or 120 years (Gen. 6:3).

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before (like 1 year) before that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the trib which will immediately precede the 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last 7 years (Dan. 9:27), the trib's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, & won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Jesus can't return 2018 because that would mean the Tribulation started last year, and obviously it did not because there was no first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) according to readiness (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10).

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Jesus won't come & gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Rev. 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming & the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16). Mt. 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus & gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thes. 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus & catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thes. 4:15-17.

Rev. 7.9

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Rev. 7:9-15's great multitude will be only that part of the church (Rev. 7:14b) which will enter the trib & then come out of it (Rev. 7:14) & enter heaven (Rev. 7:15) by dying (cf. Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8) during the trib's seals 2-6 in the chapter just prior (Rev. 6), just as the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God" who'll be under the altar in heaven at seal 5 (Rev. 6:9-11) will enter heaven by dying sometime before seal 5, & just as those in the church who'll be on the sea of glass in heaven (Rev. 15:2, cf. 12:11) at the trib's 7 last plagues (Rev. chs. 15-16) (the trib's final stage) will enter heaven by dying during the (just-preceding) literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:5-10, 14:12-13).

Luke 21.36

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Lk. 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture, for some in the church will escape all of the trib by dying before it starts (Isa. 57:1), & others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Rev. 12:14-16, Ps. 91). Those who'll escape it by dying before it starts will stand before the Lord in the 3rd heaven (Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8). And those who'll escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thes. 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Rev. 3.10

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The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Rev. chs. 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st-century local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11). Rev. 3:10 meant the literal, 1st-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Rev. 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman Emperor Domitian. For John saw his Rev. vision (Rev. 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), & Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Rev. 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11) had to suffer & die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Rev. 2:10).

The 1st-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (ek) that persecution, for, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (Jn. 17:15,20). Also, the 1st-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the earth) in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, e.g., a student in a classroom who's been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the classroom) in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can still be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him. Also, the 1st-century persecution of Rev. 3:10 (& Rev. 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (Lk. 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Rev. 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who'd already died & gone to heaven (2 Cor. 5:8, Philip. 1:21,23).

Ronald said in post #290:

There's no need of a third temple.

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Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, & 2 Thes. 2:4 require there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the future trib. It will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17) & like the temple building in heaven does (Rev. 11:19). It could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock & the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the AC could attack & defeat them & a false Messiah leading them (Dan. 11:22). Then the AC could "cut" a peace treaty with them & their false "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a, 11:23a) permitting them to keep the temple & to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it for at least 7 more years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the temple's outer court (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount & resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple & the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the AC will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the AC) in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 9:27b, 11:31, Mt. 24:15), & then sit himself in the temple & proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). Thus could begin the AC's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 2 Thes. 2:9). At the very end of the trib, the AC (Dan. 11:45) & the world's armies will attack & pillage Jerusalem right before the 2nd coming (Zech. 14:2-21), & at the 2nd coming there'll be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5). These events could result in all Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple & the Wailing Wall (aka the Western Wall), being broken down so that not 1 stone will be left upon another (Lk. 19:44, Mt. 24:2).

Then the returned Jesus (Zech. 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem & make it the capital of the world (Zech. 14:8-19, Mic. 4:1-4), & he'll build a 4th temple there (Zech. 14:20-21, 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church in the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17) & as the temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Rev. 7:15).

The veil was torn and then at Pentecost, we became the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

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While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Eph. 2:21), it coexists as the temple of God with the literal temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19), & with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (Jn. 2:21), & with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Cor. 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole-temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which the scriptures show will exist during the coming tribulation (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, 2 Thes. 2:4), which 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' 1st coming (Mt. 23:21) & even at the time of the early church (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, & will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (the OCML), which remains holy before God (Rom. 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the OCML in his temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19), & why it was possible for Paul 1 time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's OCML practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26, 1 Cor. 9:20). This isn't to say the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the OCML 3rd temple in itself & its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the OCML in itself remains holy before God (Rom. 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Rom. 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus & his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Heb. 10:1-23, Mt. 26:28).

Bible2 said:

It could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock & the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the AC could attack & defeat them & a false Messiah leading them (Dan. 11:22). Then the AC could "cut" a peace treaty with them & their false "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a, 11:23a) permitting them to keep the temple & to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it for at least 7 more years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the temple's outer court (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount & resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple & the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

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What are your bible verses that say there will be an ultra orthodox Jew playing such a major role as false messiah in the end times? I have ask you this same question about 5 times already.

Doug

let me just add , the number 7 in scriptures represents completeness,
and the number of humans on earth just hit 7 billion, so the harvest is ready.

and the 7 years in Daniel 9;27 is for the Jew only
there are 3 1/2 years dealing with the Gentile church before the Jews come back into the picture Rev. 7;1, sealing of 144,000 and the last 7 years start.

Douggg said in post 367:

What are your bible verses that say there will be an ultra orthodox Jew playing such a major role as false messiah in the end times?

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Dan. 9:26a, 11:22-23a.

Dan. 9:26's original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Gen. 21:27). The 1st century fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah (Jesus) made the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, Heb. 9:15-17), which covenant was the 1st century fulfillment of the covenant in Dan. 9:27. The future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the future fulfillment of the covenant in Dan. 9:27 & the league in Dan. 11:23, with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) Messiah in Jerusalem, after he & his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Dan. 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", i.e. peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah & his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they'll have built on the Temple Mount (after destroying the Muslim structures there), & to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount & resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Dan. 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Dan. 9:27) nations gathered at the U.N. General Assembly, & "confirm" (Dan. 9:27) that for at least 7 years he'll keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's, in his words, "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

Similarly, re: Dan. 9:27's "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", that refers to Jesus' crucifixion, which caused the Old Covenant Mosaic law's animal sacrifices for sin to cease, as far as God was concerned (Heb. 10:8-10,18, Mt. 26:28). But the unbelieving Jews kept on offering those animal sacrifices anyway, for decades after the Crucifixion, until the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Dan. 9:27's "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" also includes reference to when, in the future, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Dan. 9:26a,27a/11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 9:27c, 11:31, Mt. 24:15), & then sit himself in the temple & proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 2 Thes. 2:9).

doright said in post 368:

there are 3 1/2 years dealing with the Gentile church before the Jews come back into the picture Rev. 7;1, sealing of 144,000 and the last 7 years start.

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The 144,000 will be Christians (Rev. 14:1,4), & so they'll be part of the church (cf. Eph. 4:4-6). They'll be the firstfruits of the church (Rev. 14:4b) in the sense of its best part (cf. Num. 18:12). They'll be male virgins (Rev. 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, & who could all already be part of the church. For they'll all be alive on the earth, & will all already be God's servants (Rev. 7:3, cf. Rom. 6:22, Phil. 1:1), by the time of Rev. 7:3-8 (during the future trib's 1st stage). They'll have entered the trib along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there'll be no pre-trib rapture (2 Thes. 2:1-8, Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews & Gentiles, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), & so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray & ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into, & he'll receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's 12 tribes (Rev. 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Num. 1:32, Ps. 78:67, Ezek. 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Gen. 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Rom. 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Rom. 9:11-13), both Jews & Gentiles (Rom. 9:24).

Bible2 said:

Dan. 9:26a, 11:22-23a.

Dan. 9:26's original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Gen. 21:27). The 1st century fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah (Jesus) made the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, Heb. 9:15-17), which covenant was the 1st century fulfillment of the covenant in Dan. 9:27. The future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the future fulfillment of the covenant in Dan. 9:27 & the league in Dan. 11:23, with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) Messiah in Jerusalem, after he & his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Dan. 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", i.e. peace-treatied.

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Are you saying that the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9 is not Jesus? The text says messiah (anointed) not false messiah is cutoff.

Doug

The Lord clearly tells us that we WILL NOT know when He will return, so we need to stay godly, true, faithful Christians to stay 'ready'. Being 'ready' does not involve knowing a date, but knowing a PERSON! That is, remaining in Christ. Remaining Godly. Anyone trying to guess the date of the Lord's return is doing so against the explicit instructions of the Lord Jesus himself.

Matthew 24 says:
///36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.///
So how are we to stay ready? By continuing to trust in him and obey him! It's the same as 1 Thess 5:
///let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.///

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not stay SAVED then...

///The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.///

This is heaven and hell stuff, not knowing a simple date!

Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up! 2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned.

Luke 12:40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message:
Revelation 16:15
///15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.///
It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian.

How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in that book that Jesus will come like a thief!

Douggg said in post 371:

Are you saying that the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9 is not Jesus?

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It is. As was said in post 369: "The 1st century fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a was at the Crucifixion".

The text says messiah (anointed) not false messiah is cutoff.

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That's right, but it can mean a false Messiah re: a future fulfillment (see post 369).

eclipsenow said in post 372:

The Lord clearly tells us that we WILL NOT know when He will return . . .

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Mt. 24:36,42,44 does refer to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31). But in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the trib, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, & day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib & symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he'll come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the 1st verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we'd have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who'd say that? For the Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth & show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having 1st revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

. . . so we need to stay godly, true, faithful Christians to stay 'ready'.

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During the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 25:13), which won't occur until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6). For if a Christian isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b), & that Christian will lose his salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Lk. 12:45-46, Heb. 10:26-29, 1 Cor. 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a, Rom. 2:6-8), or apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b).

How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in that book that Jesus will come like a thief!

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Re: "chronologies", Rev. chs. 6-22 are chronological, insofar as the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18 will begin with the events of seals 2-6, occurring in the order shown in Rev. 6:3-14. After the events of seal 6, Rev. 7 will occur. Then seal 7 will be unsealed & out of it will come the trib's 7 trumpets (Rev. 8:1-6). Then the events of trumpets 1-6 in Rev. 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Rev. 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13). Then trumpet 7 will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Rev. 11:15). Out of trumpet 7's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1), the trib's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Rev. 16. Then Jesus will return (Rev. 19:2-7) & marry the church (Rev. 19:7). Then Jesus will defeat the unsaved world (Rev. 19:11-20:3) & reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Then the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Re: "Jesus will come like a thief!", 1 Thes. 5:2 means he'll come upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Rev. 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the trib's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Rev. 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thes. 5:4, Mt. 24:43). Re: Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thes. 5:2-4, Mt. 24:39), nothing requires the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the trib, for during the trib, the unsaved world could come to believe his 2nd coming has already happened (Mt. 24:24-26).

Douggg said:

Are you saying that the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9 is not Jesus? The text says messiah (anointed) not false messiah is cutoff.

Doug

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I have to agree with Doug here. But Doug, watch out with Bible2. He'll get to the point where he no longer answers your questions or thinks you've got anything worthwhile to say, and just copy and paste the same tired old irrelevant android anti-Christ stuff at you again and again and again... and he'll do it in multiple long posts as well. Be warned! (He's already on my "IGNORE" list).

Eclipsenow

The Scriptures Do Not Say That We Will Not Know

1 Thes 4;17- 5;4 Then We Which Are Alive And Remain Shall Be Caught Up To Gather With Them In The Clouds.--------- But Of The Times And Seasons, Brethern Ye Have No Need That I Write Unto You---- But You Brethern Are Not In Darkness That Day Should Overtake You As A Thief.

5 Ye Are All Of The Day Not Of The Night, Nor Of Darkness.

It Says Right Here That We Will Know The Time Of The Rapture
And Of The Second Coming

First He Says We Will Know The Years And The Season (3months)
Then It Says That The Day Will Not Over Take Us In The Darkness

People That Say God Does Not Want You To Know, Is Not Talking About The God I Know,
My God Wants Me Ready And Waiting For Him
But Most Of The Church Is Asleep.
Mat 25;1-13 Says The Whole Bride Is Asleep

Does the Bible give us any clue as to when Jesus returns?

Jesus said, "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?" (Luke 12.56)

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh" (Matt. 24.32).

The word “now” marks the beginning of the second part. Since the Lord gives this part of His prophecy on the Mount of Olives—a place where there are many fig trees—He quite naturally could use the fig tree as an illustration.

“When her branch is now become tender”—This speaks of the return of life. “And putteth forth its leaves”—This means the manifestation of life.

The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). Earlier the Lord had cursed the fig tree which possessed only leaves but had no fruit. In reality the curse was upon the Jews who possessed the outward rituals but had no reality.

"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away" (Matt. 21.19).

"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet" (Mark 11.13).

“Summer” (Matt. 24.32) is the season of growth as winter is the season of withering and death. In the summer, life shows its greatest vigor, the air is warm, and the days are bright. It is a golden season, and therefore it stands for the kingdom.

The Jews today are in the winter time. Winter points to tribulation, particularly the Great Tribulation. Spring speaks of rapture (see S.S. 2.10-14); summer speaks of the kingdom (see Luke 21.30-31). In Luke 21.29-30 we have the words “and all the trees”—which phrase represents the nations (see Daniel 4.10-17 and Judges 9.8-15). When “all the trees ... now shoot forth” (Luke 21.29-30), this is a signifying that nationalism will have been greatly developed among many peoples and nations.

Let us understand that the preceding verses in Matt. 24.4-31 form a part and are not a break with what follows; and hence the thoughts in the earlier part are continuous into the next. The major difference between 24.4-31 and 24.32-25.46 lies in this: that the one part speaks about the Jews while the other part speaks about the church.

“All these things” (v.33)—Such words should be connected with 23.36 (“All these things shall come upon this generation&#8221, with 24.6 (“these things&#8221, and with 24.8 (“all these things&#8221. “All these things” have reference to the beginning of tribulation these past 20 centuries, as reflected in such things as false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth.

“He is nigh” (v.32)—“It is nigh” (mg.) is the more accurate rendering of this phrase in the Greek text. The “it” points to the kingdom. The kingdom is near, “even at the doors”: this agrees with Luke—“Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh” (21.31).

We know Jesus returns soon after Israel becomes a nation again because Matt. 24 says "the fig tree" representing Israel "when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near" (v.32) pointing to the millennial kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth in person.

How long has Israel's branch been tender? Certainly no later than May 14, 1948 when she became a nation again. The nearness of the summer would in the backdrop of the past 2000 years not be longer than a lifetime which is 75 years according to Ps. 90.10; not a generation of 30 to 40 years, but a lifetime of 70 to 80 years in the context of a wicked generation that continues to this day and up to the point when Jesus returns.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors" (v.33).

What things? Israel a nation again as described by the "holy place" (v.15) of the 3rd Temple in Israel and to be built by the Israelites.

In order to determine when the 7-year Tribulation starts we need to observe specific events first that must take place, before that great and terrible day of the Lord.

The parousia of our Lord (and commencement of the day of the Lord that spans the 7 years of the Tribulation) begins with overcomer Christians raptured first to 3rd heaven "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) for keeping the word of His patience (3.10) before the 1st trumpet (8.7) of the Tribulation. He then comes on the clouds through the Tribulation period followed by meeting the saints "to meet the Lord in the air" at the start of the last trumpet (11.15; 1 Thess. 4.14-18; cf. 1 Cor. 15.23,50-52). After all this, He finally steps down on the mount of olives to return just as He left (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

We find complete harmony in Joel 2.31, Acts 2.20 and Rev. 6.12.

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come" (Joel 2.31). The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2.20). "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood" (Rev. 6.12).

Would the earthquakes in Haiti 2010 and Japan 2011 qualify as a great earthquake? 320,000 people died in Haiti, 2nd most deaths of any earthquake in history, and the most deaths per capita (1 in 27 people). The earthquake in Japan was the 4th greatest we have ever recorded in history in magnitude. It was the greatest financial loss, and all 50+ of its nuclear power plants were shut down. Back to back, year over year, never has such devastation ever occurred.

We know that in 2014/15 is the the 8th feast red blood moon Total Lunar Tetrad since Christ on passover, tabernacles and again on passover, tabernacles. It won't happen again for nearly 600 years 2582/83. The 6th was when Israel became a nation (1949/50) and the 7th was was when Israel entered Jerusalem (1967/68). Armistice treaty was signed in 1949.

What are the chances a unique black sackcloth sun total solar eclipse will occur in proper sequence in between, that is in the year 2012 or 2013?

There are 4 kinds of solar eclipses, the rarest which is the Hybrid occurring about 5% of the time. And there are 3 kinds of Hybrids, the rarest which is the H3 occurring 5% of that 5% so it is the rarest of all solar eclipses. The H3 concludes as a total solar eclipse to produce that black sackcloth effect. it is even more rare when it is a long version according to NASA when it lasts for 1 minute 30 seconds or more. On Nov. 3, 2013 there is just such a long H3--the 4th since Christ. It won't happen again till 2172.

So, in conclusion, just before the the Tribulation these 3 events take place in exact order. What immediately follows is the Tribulation that lasts 7 years concurrent with Daniel's final seven of 2,520 days (Dan. 9.27). Incidentally 2,520 is the smallest number divisible by all numbers from 2 to 10. Take notice!

There are 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022. Tisha B'Av was when the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed. Jesus returns to reign in the 3rd Temple on earth for 1000 years.

Troy's back.

NumberOneSon said:

Troy's back.

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You report him yet?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Bourne said:

You report him yet?

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Nah. I'm sure the mods will see it eventually.