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Amo2

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Since you are not going to start another topic, I will. So do you believe that allowing certain people to translate scripture but forbidding others to do so as if, oh I don't know, you own them, is not censorship? Who is the Catholic Church to claim ownership of the holy scriptures, and determine who can or cannot translate them into the languages of the various nations? So that all may read and hear the ultimate standard of truth for themselves. Here we are, please do show us all the translations the Catholic church had translated into native tongues that all might have access to this most important work for all professed followers of Jesus Christ to have. No doubt there are as many as there are or were languages of course, as there is no higher standard or revelation of truth above and beyond holy scripture, right?

Bring forth your evidence here, and I will bring forth the evidence of the RCC's censorship again, that all may examine both sides of the issue.
 

timewerx

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there is no higher standard or revelation of truth above and beyond holy scripture, right?

Oops

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Many Christians unknowingly idolize the Bible, turning it into a false god by placing its authority above the Holy Spirit. Or simply from spiritual blindness.
 
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Amo2

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Oops

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All authentic Christians uphold the holy scriptures as the standard of truth all other testimonies are to be judged by. The scriptures themselves claim to be "given by inspiration of God". They are therefore a standard which should not be contradicted. But to the contrary as the above God inspired scriptures state, they are -

"profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

All new professed revelations from God or the Holy Spirit, should then of course be compared to this standard for authenticity. If it contradicts the plain testimony of that already given by inspiration of God, the Holy Spirit, it is to be rejected.
 
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Clare73

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A false conflict when the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself in his own God-breathed word (2 Tim 3:16). . .
 
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timewerx

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Nothing in there says the scriptures is above the Holy Spirit in authority nor in standard nor revelation of truth according to your original question.
 
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timewerx

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A false conflict when the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself in his own God-breathed word (2 Tim 3:16). . .

The Word of God never becomes the scriptures and Jesus never refers to scriptures as the Word of God. Because the Word of God has always manifested as a living entity - God >> Jesus >> Holy Spirit.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us...

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The Word became flesh (Jesus) and made His dwelling among us (Holy Spirit). The Word of God never became the scriptures and it already dwells inside those the Holy Spirit finds its dwelling.

2 Corinthians 3:3
It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Hebrews 10:15-16
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says: 16“This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.”

It's ironic I have to quote scriptures about verses telling the Word of God did not become scriptures and rather telling us, if we have the Holy Spirit in us then we already have he Word of God in us.
 
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Amo2

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Nothing in there says the scriptures is above the Holy Spirit in authority nor in standard nor revelation of truth according to your original question.
Nobody said anything about being above the Holy Spirit. To the contrary, they are Holy Spirit inspired. You speak about the scriptures and the Holy Spirit as though they are two different things, they are not. The scriptures are the testimony of the Holy spirit of God to humanity. From which alone, you or anyone else even knows about the Holy Spirit of God. You may of course choose to separate them if you wish, I will and do not. Without them, we could all just argue and claim that we are the one's who really have the Holy spirit of God, and everyone should listen to us. As many have and do. Nevertheless the Holy Spirit of God inspired the following testimony to prevent such a situation by providing a manual as it were, for checking the truth or authenticity of the countless different claims from humanity concerning it.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Pretty simple really.
 
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Clare73

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The Word of God never becomes the scriptures and Jesus never refers to scriptures as the Word of God.
Both do in my Bible (Mt 15:6, Jn 10:35).
Because the Word of God has always manifested as a living entity - God >> Jesus >> Holy Spirit.
In yours below (Jn 14:17, 26), Jesus is not the Word of God, rather Jesus is the Word, who is God (Jn 1:1, 14). . .not the same thing.

The word of God is Scripture (Mt 15:6, Jn 10:35). . .the Word who is God is Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:1, 14).
It does in Mt 15:6, Jn 10:35.

The word of God was never not the Scriptures in NT teaching.
Nowhere in NT didactics is "word of God" ever used of anything but the Scriptures.
 
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Amo2

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Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
 
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Bob Crowley

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For a start the Catholic Church did not ban the reading of the Bible.




As for chaining Bibles to lecterns that was to avoid them being stolen.



It amazes me that some modern Protestants want to keep perpetuating the same falsehoods and myths in an age when Bibles are freely available to all in an age when most modern Westerners are literate, unlike medieval times.

I can go to the local Catholic book shop in the city and buy Bibles to my heart's content if I want to. Granted there may not be the same proliferation of translations as in a Protestant bookshop but how many different translations do you need?
 
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Amo2

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Nothing in there says the scriptures is above the Holy Spirit in authority nor in standard nor revelation of truth according to your original question.
Nor am I arguing any such thing. Rather and simply that God does not contradict Himself. The Holy Spirit is God, who inspired the writers of the truths related and expounded upon in holy scripture. The scriptures therefore being Holy Spirit inspired recorded truths, by which to compare other proclaimed truths for authenticity. If they contradict the testimonies of holy scripture already given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God, then they are to be considered false. Anybody can claim the Holy Spirit gave them teachings they are promoting, so the faithful must test the spirit of these proposed truths, against the already existing Holy Spirit inspired testimonies of holy scripture. It's not rocket science.
 
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Amo2

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Quotes below from links above them.






There are many more quotes and info at the link which provided the quotes above, which will not fit in a single post here, for those interested.
 
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Valletta

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It is sad that such blatant fabrications such as in that book, much born out of hatred, are still being circulated today. Many Catholics tirelessly preached and preserved the Word of God over the centuries, many were martyred because of it. Such false stories denigrate their sacrifices. Truly, if not for the Catholic Church, none of us would have the Bible today. At the time that the Catholic Church was choosing the books of the Bible, a process which spanned centuries, Latin was replacing Greek as the common tongue of the people in Europe. Since the vast majority of European Christians no longer spoke Greek but instead spoke Latin, in the late 300s the Catholic Church made the decision to translate the Bible into the common or "vulgar" language of the people, Latin, thus the Latin "Vulgate." There came a time in Europe where if you could read or write, that essentially meant you knew Latin. Remember too that for most of the history of Christianity, before the time of the printing press, when a Catholic named Gutenberg printed his first book(the Bible) most people were illiterate and individual ownership was rare. The time to hand-copy a Bible and the materials involved made ownership extremely expensive. Eventually Latin morphed into languages such as French, Spanish, and Italian, and many many translations of Biblical text were made by Catholics into many common languages.
Let's consider England. Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps best known for his translation in the 700s. Catholic King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated at around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter. Anyone doubting can see for themselves by following that link. When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English. When a Catholic named Gutenberg printed the first book on the printing press, of course the first book he printed was the Bible. It is known as the Gutenberg Bibles. Catholics who fled to France after the takeover of Protestantism in England were able to publish an English version of the Bible and efforts, at great peril, were made by Catholics to get an English version of that Bible, the Douay-Rheims, to the people of England. The Rheims New Testament was published in the year 1582, and the entire Bible was finished in 1609. The Protestant King James Bible, based much upon Catholic work, was published in 1611.
Now the Church has always considered the Bible the book of the Church, and has stated that the Bible is the Word of God, and thus is very particular about attempts to alter the Bible. The Catholic Church maintains that no one should add or subtract from the Bible. During the Protestant rebellion there was a lot of animosity, and individuals came up with their own Bible versions, not just their own translations, but included statements against the Catholic faith, a faith handed down from Jesus through the Apostles. This became a serious problem that the Church needed to address. The Church wisely came up with various approved lists of books and Bibles that are in compliance with Catholic teaching and in the case of Bibles are accurate translations. Today the Catholic Church employees scholars from multiple religions to made sure translations are accurate.
 
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Amo2

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Actually, there were several different sources cited, not just a book, and there are many more that could be. You are correct about public education being very poor during the days of Roman Catholic spiritual and temporal rule. It was in fact a desire by many people to have and read the scriptures that created a desire to be able to read, and ultimately lead to far greater sources of education for average citizens of nations. You seem to think that some Catholics at some times, translating the scriptures for some people, negates the many times Catholic religious and political authorities forbade the translation of scripture into the vernacular. Not to mention even owning or reading such scriptures without their permission. With severe penalties even up to death by burning for doing so. All well documented histories which many such as yourself choose to ignore and downplay, while you share those lesser histories which included translating the scriptures before the church changed its policy, and or approving translations in languages that were basically dead to the average person. Pretending this version of history is true, while the history of forbidding the scriptures is false.

This of course is beside the fact that a great many people who wanted the scriptures to be published in the vernacular, and many more who wanted them in it as well, were Roman Catholics. Who were later branded as heretics for desiring such, and later still Protestants, for protesting this and other acts their leaders mandated upon all with or without their consent or agreement. As though our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or His Apostles ever exemplified or called for such authoritarian control over the faithful by a united professed clergy and royalty.

There is a lot more to say about the histories you shared above, the details which will certainly add more pertinent information to the subject.
 
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Fervent

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So I suppose you're cool with the NWT and other purposefully deceptive translations? No need for quality control to ensure that copyists and translators are doing so with integrity and preserving what is in the original texts without deception?
 
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Valletta

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I named a number of translations into the common language of the people, I even provided a link to one. It's a horrific misrepresentation by the author to take scattered examples that popped up over the centuries where the Church was concerned about heresy and alterations of the Word of God (as I have previously explained) while suppressing information about all of the Catholic efforts to preach and preserve and translate the Word of God, century after center, and state:

"During the period when the Roman Catholic Church was in power, she did everything she could to keep the Bible out of the hands of the common people."

"Everything she could???" Taking some local problems with heresy or altered Bibles that popped up (as I previously explained seemed a proper and justifiable action by the Church when necessary) and pretending that the Church that did all of that work, century after century, to bring the Word of God to the people "did everything she could" to keep the Bible out of the hands of the common people is an outrageous misrepresentation by the author. I don't care how many citations there are from people who are willing to make such a false charge. As I've previously posted, the Catholic Church did take action when individuals added their own individual ideas to or altered the Bible. In Toulouse, an example cited in your post, it was a local council and local authorities who handled the problem over 800 years ago! Only extreme anti-Catholic bias would lend one to ignore all of that Catholic effort promoting God's Word and conclude there was some grand conspiracy within the Church to keep the Word of God from the people based on that and other such examples.
 
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Amo2

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So I suppose you're cool with the NWT and other purposefully deceptive translations? No need for quality control to ensure that copyists and translators are doing so with integrity and preserving what is in the original texts without deception?
No, I am not cool with that. Nevertheless, neither I or any other has the write to forbid such by civil penalties up to the death sentence, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Our Lord left no example or teaching to such effect. To the contrary, He said that His followers would be persecuted by the world as He was, not that they would persecute non beliers or those who disagreed among believers themselves. Such is the spirit of antichrist, not Christ. Let the truth be properly defended, not tyrannically mandated.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
 
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Fervent

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There are, admittedly, missteps in church history. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater by painting things with such broad and inflexible brush. Especially not by mischaracterizing and misrepresenting what took place to fit a narrative.
 
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Amo2

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To the contrary and again, there are many examples to choose from which I have already provided on another thread which is now locked down. They were not just one time incidences but rather laws applied to entire nations, to be established and enforced by all good Catholics, many of which were maintained or continued though the papacies forbidden books list up until the 1960's. Many Catholics actually believed God gave the Pope and Vatican the right to control and or force so very many people who disagreed with them, into temporally mandated compliance with severe penalties for disobeying. Yet many others, mostly Catholics themsleves as well, disagreed with such puffed up exaltation of their leaders and wished for all to be able to read the scriptures for themselves. Being excommunicated, banished, imprisoned, tortured, or burned at the stake for daring to do so, against the wishes of established religious and political tyrrany.

These were religious and political leaders joining hands and assuming prerogatives God never gave them or anyone else. Apart from this, is my own experience with Catholic members of my family, who were told by their priests not to read the bible because it was to difficult for them to understand. Telling them to come to them with any questions they might have, rather than read the bible for themselves. This was in the 1980's, so from personal experience, it does you no good to try to convince me that this attitude did not exist within the Catholic denomination but on rare occasions throughout history.

Perhaps in the next few posts we will examine actual Papal Encyclicals exposing the intentions of Popes and the Vatican well into the 1800's, not to mention their continued support of forms of censorship to this very day as well. This tendency of the papacy is certainly not just a historic event, the attitude and support of censoring and authoritative forms of government and unelected officials, continues to this very day.
 
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Valletta

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Why included a mere local example in the small number you have posted if you have all of these better and great examples? Please provide your one best example, detailing how sweeping it was (the number of countries) and how long it was.

As to your last comments about the 1980s, that's absolutely true. There were a number of priests who said reading the Bible might be difficult or one could come away with misunderstandings. There were times when individual Bible study was indeed not encouraged, and most of the understanding of the Bible came from homilies at mass. In fact for the majority of the history of the Catholic Church the people were illiterate. That's a different subject than your claim of banning the Bible from the people and trying to hide the Word of God from the people. Attitudes about individual Bible study have changed and we can have a later discussion about that if you wish. I will say that prayer and a deep personal relationship with Jesus have been a priority over Bible study for many Catholics. But Bible-study can bring us closer to Jesus. Realize too that Catholics are NOT Bible-only, that one can be a saint without picking up a Bible, as were the Fatima children. As I have explained the Bible is a series of liturgical books that were used at readings at mass during the early centuries of the Catholic Church. Readings varied from area to area and the decision as to what books made the final 73 canon spanned centuries and did not come until the late 300s.
 
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