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Censorship

revrobor

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In the United States far too much emphasis is placed on "personal rights" at the expense of the general good. There are things we just don't need to hear and things that are not beneficial for the general populace. One of the most rediculous things I've heard in recent years comes from the media and is "the public's right to know". Excuse me! I've never authorized the media to be my representative and don't need them digging around in the garbage to find something I "need to know". I lived through WWII when censorship was actively practiced by our government and it did not one bit of damage to me and I don't feel I was cheated out of anything.

It's been my experience that those who holler the loudest about having a "right to know" believe they are more capable than government officials or the authorities when it comes to making decisions and want to pass judgement on the decisions made when, in reality, they know little about much except what they have learned from the media. Now there's a vicious circle.
 
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Arikay

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I disagree when it comes to government. The government is here to serve the public, and thus it is the public right to know what the government is doing. We are the governments boss (although it rarely works this way). If your boss walked up to you one day and said, "I need to know what you were doing at work yesterday." and you said, "Its not your right to know." I bet you would see the boot pretty quickly.

Now when it comes to celebrities and the "publics right to know" everything about their private life, thats a different story.
 
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Beastt

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I agree with you, Arikay. The public has a right to know when it comes to actions of the government. But people, such as celebrities, still have a right to personal privacy. Personal privacy isn't an issue with government, aside from the fact that people in public office still do have private lives. If something they do is private and does not affect their role in government, then the people have no need and no right to know. But anything, and I do mean "anything" that a public official does that affects the people, particularly when it comes to rights, falls within the realm of the people's right to know. These people have taken an oath and promised to represent the people. If anything they do would be so disliked by the people that they don't want the people to know, then they have defaulted on their promise and on their office.

In regard to revrobor's comments, I disagree but I do support your right to your opinion. Differering opinions are vital to fuel discussion and without discussion, ignorance becomes the ruling force. I'm not sure how to equate being a patriotic American with thinking that it's okay for government to keep secrets from the people or deciding what the people do or do not have "a right to know". But I suppose it isn't necessary for everyone in the country to be a "patriotic American". It just seems that we have a grand misconception regarding what patriotism is and what it isn't. If someone supports ideals contrary to the ideals the country was formed on, then they are not a patriot. And that goes for everyone from the naturalized immgrant who prefers to keep to themselves, to the president himself. When anyone begins to attack or erode American ideals, then I think it's safe to say that they are unpatriotic and even unAmerican.

So how does one define "American ideals"? You don't have to. We have a few documents which define them quite nicely -- The U.S. Constitution, (in its pre-Bush condition), The Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

Censorship, whether in school, at work, on the street or even on a web-based forum, is always a sign of covering up wrongs.
 
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Lillithspeak

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I was just at the news topics forum where we were warned not to say anything contrary to the sickening, fawning, syrupy opinions posted about what a swell guy Reagan was.

I've never seen a forum where people were warned not to say anything negative about Clinton, have you?

Certainly censoring is alive and well here and in many other places where dissenters are called unpatriotic, treasonous, communist pinkos, and other savory sorts of things, yet, if anyone wants to attack someone who is progressive it's perfectly okay to hurl any insult there is. They will not find themselves warned off in advance. Interesting isn't it?
 
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Beastt

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Lillithspeak said:
I was just at the news topics forum where we were warned not to say anything contrary to the sickening, fawning, syrupy opinions posted about what a swell guy Reagan was.

I've never seen a forum where people were warned not to say anything negative about Clinton, have you?

Certainly censoring is alive and well here and in many other places where dissenters are called unpatriotic, treasonous, communist pinkos, and other savory sorts of things, yet, if anyone wants to attack someone who is progressive it's perfectly okay to hurl any insult there is. They will not find themselves warned off in advance. Interesting isn't it?

It doesn't matter whether it's Reagan, Clinton, Bush or anyone else that people think they are defending when they find themselves in a position of power and warn people not to voice "negative" opinions. Regardless of who it is they are defending or what their reasons are, they are demonstrating a distinct anti-American attitude. We have (or had), the first Amendment to the Constitution which guarantees us the right to free speech. Since a forum is not owned by the public but by a controlling few, they certainly have the right to control what is posted. But in doing so, they show themselves to be in disagreement with the basic ideals under which the United States was formed.

We have a lot of self-patriotic types. They wave their flags, defend the president, past and present, march off to war regardless of the agenda and quickly try to control those who believe in the ideal of free speech and many of the other basic rights synonymous with American ideals. It's a sad, sad state when people become such unthinking creatures that they fail to see their own fascist, communist or otherwise unAmerican tendencies. And they do so in "defense" of the United States which raises the irony to dizzying heights.

To them I can only suggest that they stop defending the flag and start defending what the flag is supposed to stand for. Stop defending presidents and start defending American rights and American freedoms. Stop thinking that laws are the way to maintain freedoms when every law passed is a freedom lost.
 
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transientlife

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With this whole thing going on now, I do not support the president, but I do however, support the troops. For they are truly the ones fighting a battle, whether they agree with the agenda or not, they are given the responsibility to follow orders and carry out their mission. Pres is just sitting back and moving chess pieces, in a sense.
 
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MKalashnikov

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The Commonwealth v Sharpless, 2 Serg & R. 91 (Sup. Ct. Penn. 1815)

Jesse Sharpless ... John Haines . .. George Haines ... John Steel . . . Ephraim Martin . . . and --- Mayo . . . designing, contriving, and intending the morals, as well of youth as of divers other citizens of this commonwealth, to debauch and corrupt, and to raise and create in their minds inordinate and lustful desires . . . in a certain house there scandalously did exhibit and show for money a certain lewd obscene painting, representing a man in an obscene and indecent posture with a woman, to the manifest corruption and subversion of youth, and other] citizens of this commonwealth offending [the] dignity of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

The defendants have been convicted, upon their own confession, of conduct indicative of great moral depravity. This court is invested with power to punish not only open violations of decency and morality, but also whatever secretly tends to undermine the principles of society. . .. Whatever tends to the destruction of morality, in general, may be punished criminally. Crimes are public offenses, not because they are perpetrated publicly, but because their effect is to injure the public. Burglary, though done in secret, is a public offense; and secretly destroying fences is indictable. Hence, it follows, that an offense may be punishable, if in its nature and by its example, it tends to the corruption of morals; although it be not committed in public.

The defendants are charged with exhibiting and showing for money, a lewd and obscene painting. A picture tends to excite lust, as strongly as a writing; and the showing of picture is as much a publication as the selling of a book. If the privacy of the room was a protection, all the youth of the city might be corrupted, by taking them, one by one, into a chamber, and there inflaming their passions by the exhibition of lascivious pictures. In the eye of the law, this would be a publication, and a most pernicious one.

Although every immoral act, such as lying, etc., is not indict able, yet where the offense charged is destructive of morality in general it is punishable at common law. The destruction of morality renders the power of the government invalid. The corruption of the public mind, in general, and debauching the manners of youth, in particular, by lewd and obscene pictures exhibited to view, must necessarily be attended with the most injurious consequences. No man is permitted to corrupt the morals of the people; secret poison cannot be thus disseminated.

 
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Beastt

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The whole concept that one man or even a group of men can disrupt or alter the morality of a society borders on the realm of madness. Such contentions are usually spawned by the need to find an innocent person guilty of something or from one's own knowledge that their presented morality is a complete falsehood.
 
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MKalashnikov

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[From: "Slouching Towards Gomorrah."]

Libertarians join forces with modern liberals in opposing censorship, though libertarians are far from being modern liberals in other respects. For one thing, libertarians do no like the coercion that necessarily accompanies radical egalitarianism. But because both libertarians and modern liberals are oblivious to social reality, both demand radical personal autonomy in expression. That is one reason libertarians are not to be confused, as they often are, with conservatives. They are quasi- or semiconservatives. Nor are they to be confused with classical liberals, who considered restraints on individual autonomy to be essential.

The nature of the liberal and libertarian errors is easily seen in discussions of pornography. The leader of the explosion of pornographic videos, described admiringly by a competitor as the Ted Turner of the business, offers the usual defenses of decadence: 'Adults have the right to see [pornography] if they want to. If it offends you, don't buy it.' Those statements neatly sum up both the errors and the (unintended) perniciousness of the alliance between libertarians and modern liberals with respect to popular culture.

Modern liberals employ the rhetoric of 'rights' incessantly, not only to delegitimate the idea of restraints on individuals by communities but to prevent discussion of the topic. Once something is announced, usually flatly or stridently, to be a right --whether pornography or abortion or what have you-- discussion becomes difficult to impossible. Rights inhere in the person, are claimed to be absolute, and cannot be deminished or taken away by reason; in fact, reason that suggests the non-existence of an asserted right is viewed as a moral evil by the claimant. If there is to be anything that can be called a community, rather than an agglomeration of hedonists, the case for previously unrecognized individual freedoms (as well as some that have been previously recognized) must be thought through and argued, and "rights" cannot win every time. Why there is a right for adults to enjoy pornography remains unexplained and unexplainable.

The second bit of advice --'If it offends you, don't buy it' -- is both lulling and destructive. Whether you buy it or not, you will be greatly affected by those who do. The aesthetic and moral environment in which you and your family live will be coarsened and degraded. Economists call the effects an activity has on others 'externalities'; why so many of them do not understand the externalities here is a mystery. They understand quite well that a person who decides not to run a smelter will nevertheless be seriously affected if someone else runs one nearby.

Free market economists are particularly vulnerable to the libertarian virus. They know that free economic exchanges usually benefit both parties to them. But they mistake that general rule for a universal rule. Benefits do not invariably result from free market exchanges. When it comes to pornography or addictive drugs, libertarians all too often confuse the idea that markets should be free with the idea that everything should be available on the market. The first of those ideas rests on the efficacy of the free market in satisfying wants. The second ignores the question of which wants it is moral to satisfy. That is a question of an entirely different nature. I have heard economists say that, as economists, they do no deal with questions of morality. Quite right. But nobody is just an economist. Economists are also fathers and mothers, husbands or wives, voters citizens, members of communities. In these latter roles, they cannot avoid questions of morality.

The externalities of depictions of violence and pornography are clear. To complaints about those products being on the market, libertarians respond with something like 'Just hit the remote control and change channels on your TV set.' But, like the person who chooses not to run a smelter while others do, you, your family, and your neighbors will be affected by the people who do not change the channel, who do rent the pornographic videos, who do read alt.sex.stories. As film critic Michael Medved put it: ' To say that if you don't like the popular culture, then turn it off, is like saying if you don't like the smog, stop breathing. . . .There are Amish kids in Pennsylvania who know about Madonna.' And their parents can do nothing about it.

Can there be any doubt that as pornography and depictions of violence become increasingly popular and increasingly accessible, attitudes about marriage, fidelity, divorce, obligations to children, the use of force, and permissible public behavior and language will change? Or that with the changes in attitudes will come changes in conduct, both public and private? We have seen those changes already and they are continuing. Advocates of liberal arts education assure us that those studies improve character. Can it be that only uplifting reading affects character and the most degrading reading has no effects whatever? 'Don't buy it' and 'change the channel,' however intended, are effectively advice to accept a degenerating culture and its consequences.

The obstacles to censorship of pornographic and viloence-filled materials are, of course, enormous. Radical individualism in such matters is now pervasive even among sedate, upper middle-class people. At a dinner I sat next to a retired Army general who was no a senior corporate executive. The subject of Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs came up. This most conventional of dinner companions said casually that people ought to be allowed to see whatever they wanted to see. It would seem to follow that others ought to be allowed to do whatever some want to see.... Any serious attempt to root out the worst in our popular culture may be doomed unless the judiciary comes to understand that the First Amendment was adopted for good reasons, and those reasons did not include the furtherance of radical personal autonomy.
 
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Beastt

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dittomonkey911 said:
[From: "Slouching Towards Gomorrah."]
Libertarians join forces with modern liberals in opposing censorship, though libertarians are far from being modern liberals in other respects. For one thing, libertarians do no like the coercion that necessarily accompanies radical egalitarianism. But because both libertarians and modern liberals are oblivious to social reality, both demand radical personal autonomy in expression. That is one reason libertarians are not to be confused, as they often are, with conservatives. They are quasi- or semiconservatives. Nor are they to be confused with classical liberals, who considered restraints on individual autonomy to be essential.

(...truncated for brevity)


Since the above is identified as an ideal which may or may not match that of dittomonkey911, the word "you" as utilized below is directed at the original author and those in agreement with the ideals rather than the one who posted the statements.

This is something I see so often but it always amazes me. Some people just can't seem to get comfortable with a discussion until they have pidgeon-holed everyone into some pre-defined catagory. Calling someone a "libertarian" just because their thoughts on one issue fall in line with libertarian ideas is short-sighted and removes the human factor from the ideas presented. I'm not a libertarian or a conservative or an egalitarian. I'm a person. And as such, I'm perfectly capable of looking at a set of views on a particular subject and selecting one which makes the most sense to me. More importantly, I'm also capable of seeking my own view regardless of those offered to choose from. I do understand the convenience of utilzing names for specific sets of ideas but to go beyond that and catagorize people as being of a particular mind-set based on any few issues seems little more than an attempt to rob them of their individuality and suggest that they are unable to process thoughts into human reasoning.

As for the comparison between running a smelter and purchasing pornographic materials, it's hard to try to imagine any two situations which are less comparable. Running a smelter that belches real, physical pollutants into the air that the rest of us must breathe to survive is a far cry from sitting behind the walls and doors of one's home and enjoying any set of images and words in whatever manner one may choose to indulge.

I could well be looking at a picture of the uncovered body of a pleasingly shaped female at this very moment and it would not affect you in the least. Likewise, I could have a fictional depiction of a virtual blood-bath on my television at this very moment and you would never know, feel or be affected by it in any way reasonably referred to as "real". Suggesting otherwise is nothing more than a skewed attempt to thrust those ideals of morality which you choose to subscribe to, upon myself and others. Were I to attempt to thrust my ideals of morality upon you, would you not feel I had over-stepped my boundaries? As long as you are not hurt in any real fashion for which there is physical evidence, then any attempt you may make at limiting my actions, thoughts or beliefs is nothing more than you trespassing upon my rights. If you choose not to watch violence on your television it affects me no more than if you choose to indulge in pornography. You can even have violent or sexual thoughts. But as long as you don't act on them, you've done nothing to hurt myself or anyone else aside from yourself. It's so odd that people believe that God gives us free will but that television turns us all into biological robots.

As long as everyone continues to attempt to force their sense of morality upon everyone else, violence will continue to arise. How can it be so easily missed that no one can force another to adopt beliefs or behaviors without treading upon their rights? As long as no "real" damage will result from the actions of another, then we are in the wrong if we try to prevent another from taking their chosen actions. It's called, "live and let live". The failure to observe and practice this simple concept is often what leads man to war.

So you turn off your television or change the channel and I'll do the same - each to fit our own personal tastes. That way I've not harmed you in any way and you have not harmed me. But attempt to control what I may or may not watch and you have violated my rights every bit as much as if I attempt to thrust those things you feel violate your sense of morality upon you.
 
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MKalashnikov

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Running a smelter that belches real, physical pollutants into the air that the rest of us must breathe to survive.

The same effect that pornography, immorality and perversion have on society.

It's called, "live and let live". The failure to observe and practice this simple concept is often what leads man to war.

"Live and Let Live" is a moral ideology. It is pushing AMORALITY on the rest of society and putting AMORALITY as the code that all must follow.

ALL LAWS, by their very nature enforce some type of moral code. The only question then becomes, Which code will be enforced.

I'll take Blackstone over you.
"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will, this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil.This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this. --- Sir William Blackstone

 
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T

The Bellman

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dittomonkey911 said:
The same effect that pornography, immorality and perversion have on society.
Except that there is no evidence that pornography and what YOU call "immorality and perversion" has any detrimental effect on society.

dittomonkey911 said:
"Live and Let Live" is a moral ideology. It is pushing AMORALITY on the rest of society and putting AMORALITY as the code that all must follow.
Live and let live is a moral precept. It is not pushing anything on anyone, unlike the moral code you seem to follow.

dittomonkey911 said:
"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will, this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil.This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this. --- Sir William Blackstone
Very interesting. That's his opinion. Mine differs. Fortunately, increasingly in the west, so do those of the lawmakers. They appreciate the danger inherent in making laws to force one group's moral precepts on others. This practice is known as "tyranny".
 
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Beastt

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dittomonkey911 said:


The same effect that pornography, immorality and perversion have on society.



"Live and Let Live" is a moral ideology. It is pushing AMORALITY on the rest of society and putting AMORALITY as the code that all must follow.

ALL LAWS, by their very nature enforce some type of moral code. The only question then becomes, Which code will be enforced.

I'll take Blackstone over you.
"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will, this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil.This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this. --- Sir William Blackstone


The concept you and Mr. Blackstone present suggests the necessary belief in a "creator" of man. If morality is to be based upon such completely unproven concepts which counter logical observation, then not only is logic considered immoral but the entire concept of freedom of religion is lost. Morality based on the simple concept of not causing real harm to others provides freedom of belief whereas morality based any singularly chosen religion, results in dictatorial control. Of course dictating what others are required to believe is, in itself, immoral and violates their right to believe. Such fascist concepts are rather distasteful and fall contrary to the concept of human rights.
 
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T

The Bellman

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dittomonkey911 said:


Once again, no one made you king.
I don't need to be king to point out someone who is raising irrelevant points.

Try to understand. Threads on these boards and others like them are created for a particular purpose, a particular topic. The OP explains this topic, usually putting forth an opinion or asking a question to be discussed. When, as often happens, discussion around that OP moves away from the issue it addresses, but the subject to which it has moved is found to be worthy of discussion, the person who wants to discuss this new subject creates a new thread for that purpose.

Acting like this helps everyone. People can access a thread by its topic and/or OP, and be confident that that thread does, indeed, discuss that topic. When a thread does move away from its subject topic, and someone recognises that and tries to bring the thread back on course, to keep attempting to divert them to a new subject is counter-productive and a rather poor tactic, implying that for some reason they are reluctant to answer, when the truth is they are happy to answer but want to keep a particular thread on track. Dragging that new subject into still other threads and maintainig the same "why won't you answer?" tactic is simply childish.

So if you want to discuss a subject that isn't that of the thread topic, create a new thread. It's not hard. I'm sure you can do it.
 
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