Catholics praying to saints

[Simon_Templar]

And I agree that through Adam sin entered the world. But that is not what the concept of original sin is. Original sin says that through Adam, sin entered the womb of every mother at the point of conception. As for the no protestant doctrine you are aware of, that's more of a reflection on you. So you say we are born spiritually dead, yet I believe they are born spiritually alive, which goes with what Jesus said when He said they receive the Kingdom of heaven. Is it the only time that is said? Well, Romans says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

If you read the verse you will see who it is talking about, those who become corrupt in their thinking. But then you have to wonder, when did they know God before that?

You can say you believe it by faith, but then don't talk about how the protestants don't use logic. It's a bit hypocritical, don't you think? This is the same type of argument used to support the fact that saints have become omnipresent to hear all the prayers to them. Don't understand how they have received a characteristic only given to God, but it's believed by faith. Same with praying to specific angels, they too have become omnipresent.

No its not hypocritical at all. There is no conflict between faith and logic. In fact, logic depends entirely upon faith in order to work.

God created man with emotions, with spirit, and with mind. The emotions and the mind must be balanced and both must be ruled by the spirit. The problem is that most of the church has got them wildly out of balance to one side or the other.

The problem with your argument against original sin there is that your leaving out part of the word. You only acknoledge half of what I said and ignored the other half. The scripture clearly states that all men are dead because of Adam's sin.

Rom 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. "

This verse states that death reigned over everyone even those who had not been judged guilty of sin.

Rom 5:15 "But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. "

This verse states that we are dead because of Adam's sin, not ours.

Rom 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) "

This one again says that death reigned through one man's offence, ie Adam's.

Rom5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. "

Here we are told that by one man's (adam) offence we are all judged to condemnation.

Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "

Here AGAIN we are told that by one man's disobedience we are made sinners.. not by our own... but by one man's. ie Adam.

Again, I will say, scripture doesn't really tell us how this is accomplished but it does undeniably tell us that it IS accomplished.

The refrence you use from romans is quite interesting in light of our discussion actually because it displays an important point. The romans refrence you used refers not to the living or dead nature of man's spirit or anything at all about man's spirit, but rather the interaction of man's mind with God. Through out this passage it refers repeatedly to "knowing" and "thoughts".
Being dead in spirit in no way makes it impossible to know about God, to have knowledge of God or anything like that. What it means is that the life of God is not in us, his eternal life and goodness. This doesn't mean that we can't know the truth, it just means we won't love the truth and we won't serve the truth.

 

[Anthony]

Prayer is communication.

I guess you can communicate with them so long as they are on earth. But 24 hours after they are dead, you can no longer communicate via prayer?

 

[Svt4Him]

I don't feel the need to understand how this was accomplished. I'm satisfied with it being a mystery. I have faith

You are kind of saying two different things here. Logic doesn't apply in this quote above, as you don't understand it.

No its not hypocritical at all. There is no conflict between faith and logic. In fact, logic depends entirely upon faith in order to work.

In which way exactly again?

God created man with emotions, with spirit, and with mind. The emotions and the mind must be balanced and both must be ruled by the spirit. The problem is that most of the church has got them wildly out of balance to one side or the other.

Can't say being steriotypical is logical.

The problem with your argument against original sin there is that your leaving out part of the word. You only acknoledge half of what I said and ignored the other half. The scripture clearly states that all men are dead because of Adam's sin.

Rom 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. "

This verse states that death reigned over everyone even those who had not been judged guilty of sin.

It says that? I read that they have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, how exactly do you get that that means they haven't sinned?

Rom 5:15 "But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. "

This verse states that we are dead because of Adam's sin, not ours.

This is false. The Bible is clear we are not judged by our fathers sins. Through Adam many have died, true enough, because Adam allowed sin into the world and all men sin. Seems you missed a bit of my post as well.

Rom 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) "

This one again says that death reigned through one man's offence, ie Adam's.

Agreed. But if you chose to go by this, then through Adam all died, then through Christ all are made alive, therefore there is no one who will die. This is false as there are conditions for both. For Adam's death, one must sin. Through Christ, one must repent and believe.

Rom5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. "

Here we are told that by one man's (adam) offence we are all judged to condemnation.

See above, as you seem to miss the righteousness part.

Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "

Here AGAIN we are told that by one man's disobedience we are made sinners.. not by our own... but by one man's. ie Adam.

Again we are not all made righteous automatically. So if that is the case, is it not possibly that all are not made sinners automatically, or do you think we are all automatically righteous? If that is the case, you will have a hard time arguing original sin, it should now be original righteousness.

Again, I will say, scripture doesn't really tell us how this is accomplished but it does undeniably tell us that it IS accomplished.

The refrence you use from romans is quite interesting in light of our discussion actually because it displays an important point. The romans refrence you used refers not to the living or dead nature of man's spirit or anything at all about man's spirit, but rather the interaction of man's mind with God. Through out this passage it refers repeatedly to "knowing" and "thoughts".
Being dead in spirit in no way makes it impossible to know about God, to have knowledge of God or anything like that. What it means is that the life of God is not in us, his eternal life and goodness. This doesn't mean that we can't know the truth, it just means we won't love the truth and we won't serve the truth.

That's not actually what it says. But that is how you take it, fair enough. That said, I will gladly defer this to another topic of original sin, but you seemed to gloss over the omnipresent quality that angels and saints must have to receive prayer.

 

[Simon_Templar]

When I say that I don't need to have the "how it works" explained because I know that it does work I am saying that an explanation. This is significantly different than saying "I will accept an explanation that isn't logical".

I don't need any explanation at all but I'm also not going to accept an explanation that either doesn't mesh with scripture, or is logicaly invalid.

I think the bible is clear that all men are born in an inherited state of mortality. I don't believe that we are born sinful in the sense that we have committed sin.. each person must commit sin themselves to be sinful, however in our state of beind disconnected from God it is impossible for us to do good or not to sin because all goodness is in and from God.. all faith is from God.. if we are disconnected from him spiritually we are unable to live out those things.
Argument aside, that is what I think scripture teaches.

Moving on to the omnipresent saints and angels. I personaly have never seen why saints or angels have to be omnipresent to hear prayers. God of course is omnipresent, and omniscient he knows even our unspoken thoughts etc etc. However, revelation tells us that the ministers who stand before God bring the prayers of the saints (and here I don't think it means the saints who have passed on but all believers) before God like insense. This tells me that the prayers we pray are not simply words that die when spoken and go no farther than where we stand. The prayers we pray are gathered up and taken before God to be presented before him like insense, like an offering.

Also, in hebrews chapters 11 and 12 it teaches us that the hero's of the faith and the righteous men who have gone before us are like a great cloud of witnesses. This does not require the interpetation that they can see us and watch what goes on upon the earth, but it could certainly allow that interpetation.
In chapter 12 it also goes on to say that in Christ we have become citizens of the heavenly city and as such we dwell not only in the presense of Christ, but also of angels and of the souls of righteous men who have gone before. If we dwell in their presense in Christ, how is it hard to believe that they could bear witness to our words and deeds?

I've never prayed to a saint or an angel, but I'm not going to condemn those who do because its allowable from scripture as I see it. Furthermore, I think the traditional understanding of the communion of the saints is better and more scripturally sound than that with which I was raised, believing that they are seperated from us and dead.

Prayer and reverence for the saints is something that deffinetly needs to be practiced in moderation and must be strictly guarded against crossing into worship. There is, however, real value to understanding our true heretige as christians.. that we are part of them and they are part of us.. that we are part of a living church, that our God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

 

[Heinrich]

I can clearly see that this topic can get some people upset.
There is 2 scriptures I've been quoted from the (non-catholic) bible to try and prove that we should ask the "saints" to pray for us.
The one is in Revelations somewhere. About the bowls with the prayers of the saints.
The other is James 5:16b "the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

If we accept this as proof for asking saint to pray we must also accept some things like:
1. Paul wrote letters to people in heaven
2. Elijah was already dead when he prayer for the rain... ?

But enough about that. There really aint much way of proving this saints praying thing without that other books in the catholic bible.

-Heinrich

 

[Heinrich]

ok the previous post was maybe a waste of time and space

Here is another opinion I have.
I will make the statement that it is insulting to Jesus Christ to ask "people in heaven" to pray for us.
why?
Because firstly Christ sacrifice was complete. Nothing needs to be added.
Secondly the bible states (hebrews) that Christ is our High Priest in Heaven that makes continual intersession for us. I firmly believe that He is more than capable of the job.

bye
-Heinrich

 

[Father Rick]

...which is basically still man's interpretation. That sure is a HUGE risk for my eternal salvation and daily walk to assume responsibility off on another man and how I should live and what I should believe outside of the Bible (one I am not willing to take). All of us have the same access to God and being a leader within "a church with walls" makes one no closer to God than the individual in the pew. Just as one has right to discriminate and disagree with our political leader, we have the same opportunity to search God and the word he has given us to determine other's false doctrines. The Bible states His word is God-breathed...just as you might believe someone could be led away from another teaching false "tradtition" - how can you prove 100% that these individuals were incorrect as well?

It has ALWAYS been taught, from the very first days of the church, that the CHURCH as a whole is the Body of Christ-- and although individuals within the larger body make mistakes, when the WHOLE CHURCH comes together then IT is perfect. These decisions were made in ecumenical council-- before there were the separations in the Church we see now, when members of the Church from the whole world came together, spent years studying these things out and made decisions. This is exactly how it was decided which of the hundreds of different books and writings from the early church were to be included in the Bible. You have no problem accepting that their decision was correct in gathering together the books of the Bible and putting them together and stating authoritatively that the Bible is the Word of God, yet you deny the very process that created the Bible.

I fully agree with you that the Bible is God's word. I just recognize that fact that the Bible didn't fall down out of heaven completely written for someone to pick up off the ground and start publishing, but rather God worked THROUGH men to deliver it to us.

Again, that is such an assumption to make. Do we not have enough strength or faith to know when God is speaking? ((rhetorical)Are we so weak that we have to rely on man for traditions outside of the Bibe for guidance in our walk with God? The Bible is all we need, it is declared through the Word that it is God breathed...if millions of people want to assume that a group of men have given God-breathed direction towards traditions mandated within a church that is their right.

This entire statement smacks of pride.

Just look at the tens of thousands of denominations that can't agree on what the Bible says. Obviously, we as individuals don't have the strength or faith to ALWAYS know when God is speaking. We have to admit our own humanity and our own imperfections and defer to the judgement of the Body as a whole. It's so funny that you had just stated that it's a huge risk to depend on some man's interpretaton, then turn around and say you will depend on your own interpretation.

I'm sorry, but again, I will not risk that. An individual cannot put all their hope and understanding in someone else besides God. He deserves all of it, and I personally feel convicted that God Almighty might even feel pushed to the side if our concentration continues to go towards individuals considered "saints" "holy", or past church leaders that are now dead. He deserves all my attention and not a second less.

I am not putting my hope in ANYONE or ANYTHING other than God. I am just recognizing the fact that God is so much bigger than just me and my personal walk with Him.

I recognize that God has chosen to work THROUGH people. It's still God. It has been stated time and again in this thread that in 'praying to saints', one is not expecting the saint to do ANYTHING except to pray to God with you and for you just as if you asked a friend or a pastor to pray with you and for you regarding a situation. No more, no less.

To me, it would almost seem a kick in the face for Jesus to do what he did and then to seek continual directed ritualistic guidance from anyone else...dead or alive.

Here you are either 1) greatly misinformed, 2) haven't read through this thread, or 3) are deliberately trying to be inflammatory. No one has EVER said one was seeking ANY kind of guidance from a saint. Just asking the saint to pray for you. That comment doesn't deserve any further response than that.

 

[Father Rick]

I do want to bring up another point here as well...

It seems that the greatest objection to 'praying to saints' is the concept that to do so is necromancy. Now, necromancy is actually trying to get information FROM the dead instead of asking those in the presence of Christ to pray. Many refuse to make this distinction, quoting the one occurrence in scripture where Saul consulted the witch of Endor where Saul asked for Samuel to be 'summoned'. Notice, in that case Saul was trying to get information from Samuel, not have Samuel pray... AND that Samuel did appear and talk to Saul anyway (which makes it clear that those dead CAN hear and know what is happening here on earth, at least in some cases).

Looking in the New Testament, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah both appeared and Jesus talked with them at length. Now some argue that Elijah 'never really died but was taken to heaven' but scripture is quite clear that Moses died and God Himself buried him. SO... Jesus, on earth as a man, talked with with these 2 who were already dead. This means that either 1) Jesus practiced necromancy according to the definition that has been used in the forum or 2) not all instances of talking to those who have died are, in fact, necromancy and therefore those scriptures quoted here dealing with that need to be re-visited as to their actual meaning.

If Jesus, on earth in the form of a man, having 'emptied himself' of the form of God (in other words, He was still God just not 'functioning' like God while here on earth) held conversations with those who were already dead-- then what's wrong with acting like Jesus? Jesus went so far as to have a 2 way conversation with them and we're just saying have a 1-way conversation in which you ask them to pray for you and DON'T ask them to talk back.

 

[Hadron]

I actually agree that consulting spirit mediums or witches to call up the deceased is a different concept than praying to saints and the Saul/Samuel argument shouldn't be used for that.

But meh... neither are for me. I am convinced it is not scriptural for me to pray to them.

Philippians 2:12 (NIV)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
​

It is my walk that I should be most concerned about.

 

[HisKid1973]

Just a few ??? We can pray in our mind without speaking and know Jesus and our Abba hears. They are omnipresent and onipotent , OK.. Now with the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews, do we know if they have the same omni's as God. Don't you think this would have been a good time in scripture to talk about them hearing our prayers and which one should be prayed to for what. How about Stephen , wouldn't that have been a time to bring up about prayer to him or him going to a purgatory or what he should be prayed to for. (ie selling a house,i heard someone talking about a kit with a prayer and a saint that specializes in selling houses and you bury it.) I mean this is important things , don't you think scripture would give clear direction to do these things. Same with the whole penance and indulgance things. Arent we all saints, arent our prayers now filling the bowls in heaven.K

 

[Svt4Him]

Looking in the New Testament, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah both appeared and Jesus talked with them at length. Now some argue that Elijah 'never really died but was taken to heaven' but scripture is quite clear that Moses died and God Himself buried him. SO... Jesus, on earth as a man, talked with with these 2 who were already dead. This means that either 1) Jesus practiced necromancy according to the definition that has been used in the forum or 2) not all instances of talking to those who have died are, in fact, necromancy and therefore those scriptures quoted here dealing with that need to be re-visited as to their actual meaning.

Let me just point something out here. Moses and Elijah are the only two people from the OT to see God. Since Jesus is God, I believe they saw Jesus when they saw God. But your example is not the same as praying to them. Jesus saw them, there is no reason to believe we can't see angels or even, at rare times, someone who has died, but that is no where near thinking I can pray to Michael and someone on the other side of the world can pray to Michael and he'll hear them both. But this in no way is the same example as Saul, as I don't recall Jesus going up there to seek the dead's help, which is what Saul was doing, and is pretty close to what praying to a dead person is doing.

 

[lismore]

I do want to bring up another point here as well...

It seems that the greatest objection to 'praying to saints' is the concept that to do so is necromancy. Now, necromancy is actually trying to get information FROM the dead instead of asking those in the presence of Christ to pray. Many refuse to make this distinction, quoting the one occurrence in scripture where Saul consulted the witch of Endor where Saul asked for Samuel to be 'summoned'. Notice, in that case Saul was trying to get information from Samuel, not have Samuel pray... AND that Samuel did appear and talk to Saul anyway (which makes it clear that those dead CAN hear and know what is happening here on earth, at least in some cases).

Looking in the New Testament, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah both appeared and Jesus talked with them at length. Now some argue that Elijah 'never really died but was taken to heaven' but scripture is quite clear that Moses died and God Himself buried him. SO... Jesus, on earth as a man, talked with with these 2 who were already dead. This means that either 1) Jesus practiced necromancy according to the definition that has been used in the forum or 2) not all instances of talking to those who have died are, in fact, necromancy and therefore those scriptures quoted here dealing with that need to be re-visited as to their actual meaning.

If Jesus, on earth in the form of a man, having 'emptied himself' of the form of God (in other words, He was still God just not 'functioning' like God while here on earth) held conversations with those who were already dead-- then what's wrong with acting like Jesus? Jesus went so far as to have a 2 way conversation with them and we're just saying have a 1-way conversation in which you ask them to pray for you and DON'T ask them to talk back.

Hi there

I was always taught that prayer is a two way process. One expects an answer: a message back from the Lord. Otherwise its just empty words or a sign of mental illness (isnt that what speaking to yourself is?). Indeed from Scripture we can see that God does reply to the believers prayer.

Psalm 34: 4 I sought the LORD, and he answered me:
he delivered me from all my fears.

1 Kings 9: 3 The LORD said to him:
"I have heard the prayer and plea you have made before me; I have consecrated this temple, which you have built, by putting my Name there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

2 Kings 19: 20 Then Isaiah son of Amoz sent a message to Hezekiah: "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I have heard your prayer concerning Sennacherib king of Assyria. 21 This is the word that the LORD has spoken against him:
" 'The Virgin Daughter of Zion
despises you and mocks you.
The Daughter of Jerusalem
tosses her head as you flee.


Now praying to a saint- do you get a reply? How do you know they have heard? or are they only able to hear and not speak to us? We pray to them so they will pray? Does God give them an answer and then they give it to us?

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


P.S God is not a meanie, you dont need to add more loops into the circuit. He is peaking to us constantly if only we would listen. Indeed, we pray when we need something on the whole, God speaks all the time

 

[repoland2]

I was wondering if anyone had any scriptures for me on what the Bible says on the subject of praying to the saints. My boss is Catholic and he and I go round and round sometimes. This is the recent discussion that we've had.

Thanks!

With the utmost respect to Father Rick and all other catholics, I have this one scripture for your struggle.

6] Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7] If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!"

So if you pray to anyone except Jesus Christ, you will have a really hard time when God decides He's tired of watching His beloved children pray to idols.

 

[Br_Rhoades]

The word of God is clear for me. I know of only one mediator, and that is Jesus, according to God's word. To pray or ASK intercession from saints (as you've put it) is to deny the cross in my view. Jesus died so that we would look to Him and Him alone for our trust, our asking and our receiving.

AMEN – then you add . . .

Like I said, you and the article make "reasonable sense" but not spiritual or God sense, and that is just my view based on my relationship with Christ and the word of God that I read and study from. If that is how your walk is, that is your walk and your journey. We are both headed in the same direction, just taking different paths. I have no problem with that. Our differences doesn't change my love for you as my brother and doesn't keep me away from fellowship with you either. I choose not to and you choose the opposite that is just the way it is in the life of two believers who walk out their lifestyle differently.

Did I miss something in John 14:6 – I am the way and no man comes to the Father except by me. It seems like we have many paths to God from your testimony – did I miss the text you gave to prove this point in opposition to John 14:6 or have I missed the truth of that text?
I know man regenerate and unregenerate is in a soul quest to find the thing that will fill the ‘god shaped hole’ in this life. Some quest to serve the flesh till it feels no pain, some quest to pain to see no understanding and some understand to avoid the pain. Only Jesus Christ heals the pain and restores the spirit of man, to say that we are all on the same path seems to beg what then is real in your view? As Bob Dillon once said – ‘you have to serve somebody’.

 

[Br_Rhoades]

You seem to be implying that saints are seen as something other than men (and women)... saints are simply men and women who have already finished their life here on earth and are currently in heaven-- and Jesus is the mediator between God and men (both those who are alive and those who have died in the faith)...

I am not sure of how that works in your version of the 'C', are all who confess Jesus died on the cross and believe God raised Jesus Christ from the Grave saved as we find in Romans 10:9,10 and therefore Saints? Sainthood was something very different in the version of 'C' I have experienced and no human flesh could be called a Saint, is it different for you then?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was wondering if anyone had any scriptures for me on what the Bible says on the subject of praying to the saints. My boss is Catholic and he and I go round and round sometimes. This is the recent discussion that we've had.

Thanks!

I have no idea.
I do not know anything about this.

 

[Br_Rhoades]

As I said before, this has been discussed at great length, including all the scriptural arguments in the thread found here. http://www.christianforums.com/t1438586-why-i-think-praying-to-dead-people-is-wrong.html

I know we are given the ministry of reconciliation in

- And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

But who are the Saints and are you a Saint? I have asked this in another place but it may have fallen too deep in this thread for you to see it. How do we as believers know what a ‘Saint’ is?

 

[Highway of Life]

With the utmost respect to Father Rick and all other catholics, I have this one scripture for your struggle.

So if you pray to anyone except Jesus Christ, you will have a really hard time when God decides He's tired of watching His beloved children pray to idols.

So, what is your point? They don't struggle with it, because asking the Saints for prayer is NOT unscriptural. It's Worship vs. Prayer, they are not the same.
They don't 'Worship' the Saints, or anyone else besides God the Father.
They ASK the Saints for prayer, which asking could be considered 'praying' but no different than YOU asking YOUR friend to pray for you. Except that Saints are MORE alive in heaven then we here on earth are.

Here is an excellent quote:

Asking dead people is different than asking a living person to pray for you..... the Saints in Heaven are more alive than we are, because they are with God. When the living praying for us, is it there body that is praying?
When someone dies it is only their body that dies, decays and waits for the resurrection...that is to say...that which was really praying for you when they were alive is now prefected in Heaven with God. Just because their body died doesn't mean that they are no longer apart of the Body of Christ, we are still united with them thru Christ, so they still are able to pray for us, just as they did while they were living on earth.

The early church practiced this... we have writings from early church fathers, graffiti in catacombs and some testimony of early christains themselves.

Blessings,
Highway of LIfe

 

[Simon_Templar]

But who are the Saints and are you a Saint? I have asked this in another place but it may have fallen too deep in this thread for you to see it. How do we as believers know what a ‘Saint’ is?

Saint is simply another term to describe God's people. Believers, elect, overcomers, christians, chosen, all can be effectively synonymous with "saint".

The church historicaly has been careful about calling people saints because it is easy for false believers to masquerade and also people can fall away. The church didn't want to honor a false beleiver as a saint so they developed the process of only declaring people "saints" after they died and the fruit of their life showed them to be truly faithful. This doesn't mean that we aren't saints. It just means the church has used careful standards in officially sanctioning people to be held up as examples to the church.

 

[Heinrich]

I guess it is hard to realize what you've been doing your whole life was wrong?
That is probably why these sorta "discussions" never get anywhere.

Maybe where not asking the right questions?
Why are you praying to people that no longer live on earth? (actually we are all eternal spiritual beings)
Do you believe they can give you something you cannot recieve praying to Jesus?
Do you think there is some problem praying directly to the father? (throught Jesus Christ our High Priest)
Or... do you every hear God speak back to you when you pray?
Do you hear saints speak back to you when you pray to them... or ask them to pray for you... ?

The thing with Jesus and Moses and Elijah isn't really saying anything about this topic.
Firstly it's Jesus who is the Son of God and not just a normal human like us.
Moses represented the Law and Elijah the prophets.
And Jesus came to fullfill the law and prophets.
This was a very powerfull demonstration on the mountain to drive this home for the disciples.
Jesus always prayed to his father in every place that it is mentioned to who he was praying.
Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham Isaac & Jacob. The living. So the point about moses/elijah dying on earth or not is really irrelevant.