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So many Catholics do not know their faith and that is the reason why they are easy prey to other faiths. That is not your fault that is my Churches fault. It was he/her fault that they did n't understand it, but the Churches fault for not effectively teaching the faith.
I am beginning to believe that we are going into the time of the Great Apostasy that Paul prophesied. So many Christians are falling away from the faith in all faith traditions. I mean look at Europe. Christianity is becoming a endangered animal in Europe.
That's not just a Catholic problem, Brother. And those falling away the most? College students, of every Faith. Even in seminaries and Bible Colleges, the stats are the same as "the world." Scary stuff ...
I myself [and other Preteists] believe that was already fulfilled....but then again......does it really matterI am beginning to believe that we are going into the time of the Great Apostasy that Paul prophesied. So many Christians are falling away from the faith in all faith traditions. I mean look at Europe. Christianity is becoming a endangered animal in Europe.
This my Body = This IS my body. Not that hard to get really.this = is?
That's what I said. And it's clear they walked away grumbling some more after He said a second time and more forcefully "Truly Truly I say to you......"It's clear that they grumbled over His claim of heavenly origin here.
(6:62)They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
Ignorance of their own belief? These were His diciples who saw many miracles and wonders He had done up to that point yet they couldn't believe He meant He's spiritual life in a metaphorical sense? C'mon Jig you're better than that.Blinded by the ignorance of their own unbelief, they were unable to understand the spiritual significance of which Jesus spoke.
If ‘the Jews’ continued to take his words literally they would be disgusted and appalled. The drinking of any blood was forbidden (Lev. 17:10–14). He told them that unless they did this repulsive thing they would have no life in them—they would not experience eternal life that comes from a relationship with the Father. Having stated things negatively, Jesus then stated them positively: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. To understand properly what Jesus was saying in highly metaphorical language, readers must remember that he said the same thing in more straightforward terms in 6:40: ‘everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day’. Placing these two verses side by side, it is clear that eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood is a metaphor for believing in him.
It proves this passage is not talking about "actual" communion. So, why is it being brought up to support it?
See now you have also brought in the laws of physics as well. Just couldn't help yourself.
Erose said:you guys do not believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus is due to the lack of belief that He cannot do it because it violates the laws of Physics.
This is your opinion.Yeh? Still haven't seen a verse or passage from your side that shows this is a symbolic act and nothing more. When you take all of the passages about the Lord's Supper every single one uses words that state this act happens. No where does it imply that it is a metaphor or a symbol.
The Catholic claim has been refuted. It's just not possible for a Catholic to believe that the bread doesn't turn into Jesus' actual flesh without becoming an apostate.The issues is whether or not the Lord's Supper is really the body and blood of Jesus. But the problem on your side is that the only argument you have is that it breaks the laws of physics. If you do not believe me go back and read this thread. You don't have to take my word for it go back and read the posts and you will see that the symbolic protestants keep ending up with this argument for they and you cannot refute the Catholic claim from scripture.
The Protestant faith traditions hold BOTH real presence AND symbolic representation. I'm not limited to one belief like you are.Because that is what your faith tradition tells you to believe and as such you believe.
You are correct in your assessment. I would cease being Catholic in my mind. You may have been Catholic at one time or another, but obviously you didn't truly understand it or you wouldn't have left.
I am beginning to believe that we are going into the time of the Great Apostasy that Paul prophesied. So many Christians are falling away from the faith in all faith traditions. I mean look at Europe. Christianity is becoming a endangered animal in Europe.
Huh, I just read a CNN article earlier in the day which cited a Newsweek poll of Americans which estimates that 85% of adults identify as Christian yet 76% or something like that are 'convinced' God is real. Odd thing there.
I myself [and other Preteists] believe that was already fulfilled....but then again......does it really matter
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2? - Christian Forums
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?
2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.
Maybe not you but others had and you just stepped into the debate.You are the one who brought up the laws of physics. Not me. I was trying to tell you this was not true.
Maybe it is, but it is a solid one.This is your opinion.
Still no verses to refute the Catholic claim.Context = a symbol rich memorial meal, held during a symbol rich Jewish Feast.
The 3rd cup may have represented redemption but the new cup of the New Covenant became the true cup of redemption.The cup Jesus picked up at the end of their meal was the 3rd (out of 4) cups of wine used in the Passover meal. It symbolized "redemption". This symbolism fits perfectly with what Jesus said about it. No need to assume Jesus broke this pattern.
Actually it hasn't. It has been denied and disbelieved but never effectively refuted.The Catholic claim has been refuted. It's just not possible for a Catholic to believe that the bread doesn't turn into Jesus' actual flesh without becoming an apostate.
Yes but you are following your faith tradition of whatever church you are now part of. Also you are right I have no choice but to follow my God and my faith. I have been convinced without a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic faith is the true faith. So you are right I have no choice for this is what God has taught me to believe. It is the truth and I can only believe in that truth that has been revealed to me through His Church and Scriptures.Unlike me, you have NO choice but to believe in this bizarre idea.
The Protestant faith traditions hold BOTH real presence AND symbolic representation. I'm not limited to one belief like you are.
Or the devil led you astray, but that is for you to discern. I am sure that every single heretic felt like he/she was following the truth, but the question is are they?I truly understood the Catholic position and defenses. I even took Catholic apologetic classes. I never wanted to leave Catholicism. I loved it! I thought Protestants were strange, delusional people.
My grandfather is an ordained Deacon. I was personal friends with the priests and they would come to eat dinner at my house on a normal basis. I even traveled to another country to sit under a Mass held by the Pope. I was confirmed under Saint Padre Pio and was blessed by a Bishop.
Yet, I still left the Roman Church. God opened my eyes to the truth.
Or the devil led you astray, but that is for you to discern. I am sure that every single heretic felt like he/she was following the truth, but the question is are they?
Am I a heretic for not believing the bread at communion is actually Jesus' flesh?
The problem with that interpretation as Fr. John A. OBrien (OBrien, The Faith of Millions, 215). explains:
"The phrase to eat the flesh and drink the blood, when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him
Am I a heretic for not believing the bread at communion is not actually Jesus' flesh?
Context = a symbol rich memorial meal, held during a symbol rich Jewish Feast.
There is no context in a Jewish feast for someone holding up a piece of bread and saying This is my body.
The context is given in John chapter 6
I am the bread of life I am the living bread that came down from heaven .. unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you . Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life .. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink .
Most of his followers left. They understood he was speaking literally.
Jesus turns to the twelve and says Do you also want to leave? This is a crunch point There is no compromise in this. He offers no further explanation. Jesus is saying I meant what I said. Do you believe in me?
The apostles are confused but Peter answers Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God. Jesus has just told them that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life. Now Peter says you have the words of eternal life. So he is accepting that he has to literally eat Jesus flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life because Jesus has said it and Jesus is the Holy One of God, even though he does not understand how this can happen without there being some sort of horrible cannibalistic ritual. And Jesus does not enlighten them.
At the Last Supper Jesus blesses the bread and wine. Does he say Hey guys, remember that time a few weeks ago when I really got you wound up about eating my flesh and drinking my blood? You really fell for it. Of course I was just winding you up. You only have to eat this bread and drink this wine as a sort of symbolic action. We just pretend its my body and blood."
No he says
This IS my body
This IS my Blood
Take and EAT
DRINK from this all of you.
Jesus said what he meant, and he meant what he said.
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