Catholics aren't Christians

[graciesings]

To clear up some confusion:

Most protestants, especially the ones with liturgical services (like Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Methodists) regard Catholics as Christians. The ones who don't are usually on the far edge of "Christian" such as Pentecostals who don't believe in the Trinity, OR they are Calvinists. For some reason, many Calvinists are quite hard-headed about them being THE ONLY true Christians. "Calvinist" includes Presbyterian, some Baptists, and some Evangelical/non-denominational groups.

There are more accusations than just idolatry because we pray to the saints. If any of you want the full run-down on that, visit CARM forums and find the "Roman Catholicism" division. I think the other day I was on there and someone was making the case that the RCC is evil because it didn't publicly excommunicate Adolf Hitler.

Various accusations I've run into on that forum include the facts that Catholics worship a cracker God (their perspective on the Eucharist), "Roman prayer is an expression of unbelief," and the church's main contribution to the world has been "millions of wet people." But do be careful saying anything to the Calvinists on there because they will refuse to listen to "your evil agenda against Jesus." They also run the forum, so they can ban you if your posts do a good job of standing up for the Catholic Church. Sadly, I have not yet achieved that honor.

God bless you,
Grace

 

[PersephonesTear]

To clear up some confusion:

Most protestants, especially the ones with liturgical services (like Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Methodists) regard Catholics as Christians. The ones who don't are usually on the far edge of "Christian" such as Pentecostals who don't believe in the Trinity, OR they are Calvinists. For some reason, many Calvinists are quite hard-headed about them being THE ONLY true Christians. "Calvinist" includes Presbyterian, some Baptists, and some Evangelical/non-denominational groups.

There are more accusations than just idolatry because we pray to the saints. If any of you want the full run-down on that, visit CARM forums and find the "Roman Catholicism" division. I think the other day I was on there and someone was making the case that the RCC is evil because it didn't publicly excommunicate Adolf Hitler.

Various accusations I've run into on that forum include the facts that Catholics worship a cracker God (their perspective on the Eucharist), "Roman prayer is an expression of unbelief," and the church's main contribution to the world has been "millions of wet people." But do be careful saying anything to the Calvinists on there because they will refuse to listen to "your evil agenda against Jesus." They also run the forum, so they can ban you if your posts do a good job of standing up for the Catholic Church. Sadly, I have not yet achieved that honor.

God bless you,
Grace

*Most Pentecostal groups do believe in the Trinity. The only ones that I think don't are Oneness Pentecostals, and that's a whole different beast.

As for the rest of your post... I'm pretty sure I've heard most of those accusations. I used to try really hard to defend Catholic belief to people who said those inane things, but I eventually learned that the argument is useless. You can't debate theology with a Calvinist; and it's fairly hard to do so with many Pentecostals, too.

 

[Rhamiel]

*Most Pentecostal groups do believe in the Trinity. The only ones that I think don't are Oneness Pentecostals, and that's a whole different beast.

As for the rest of your post... I'm pretty sure I've heard most of those accusations. I used to try really hard to defend Catholic belief to people who said those inane things, but I eventually learned that the argument is useless. You can't debate theology with a Calvinist; and it's fairly hard to do so with many Pentecostals, too.

thank you for your kind words

now I am addressing the topic in general and not your post, lol just pointing that out so there is no confusion.

we can not really say that only one group of Protestants thinks this or that, Protestantism is not one group, but a collection of various denominations.

some Calvinists will say that there are many "Regenerated Christians" in the Catholic Church, some have a harsher view.

My Mom is a member of the United Methodist Church, while most Methodist will say that Catholics are Christian, I have met some who do not think that.

while this is a minority view in Protestantism, it is a spread out view, this is not a simple topic
there is a spectrum, from like being ango-catholic (a Episcopalian or Anglican who keeps a lot of Catholic traditions) to calling the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon.

a lot will say that we are Christian, but have adopted pagan beliefs and practices.
as others pointed out, many seem to think that our reverence to the Saints is pagan in origin. That is a silly idea, the Early Church venerated saints while we were still being persecuted by pagans, why would we pick up their beliefs while they are KILLING us. We refused to sacrifice to idols and would be burnt alive, beheaded or fed to wild beasts, why would we refuse to sacrifice to idols and then venerate saints if it was not a good thing?

 

[bill5]

Why do people say this? I dont quite get it.

They're ignorant and/or brainwashed (to be kind) - these are typically the dribblings of Fundamentalists and talking to them is rather like banging your head against a brick wall. Rather pointless. Better to walk away and leave them to their absurd delusions.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Why do people say this? I dont quite get it.

I'm from the "Bible Belt" and hear this all the time. Many who say it believe that faith & salvation are decision-based, and they believe that baptism is also a decision - one that follows faith & salvation (and thus has no real meaning). They see salvation as a moment, not as a process or journey. So, Catholics or others who believe that baptism is the beginning of the journey of faith never "made a decision for Jesus," "accepted Jesus as their personal Savior," and so forth.

Protestants who believe this will often say "you believe in works-based salvation" or "your parents made a decision for you" or other things like that. But, at its core, their dispute lies with the ideas of an institutional Church and Sacraments. If they reject that the Church is more than a local group of like-minded people, and if they reject that God works through sacramental means that he has entrusted to the Church, and if they believe that praying the "Sinner's Prayer" is the only means to salvation, then they will conclude that Catholics and Christians are two different things. They often conclude that in a very loud and abrasive way. Though, in fairness, some who express this belief do so with the best of intentions. For every bigot or loon out there, there's probably a well-meaning Protestant who genuinely cares for others.

It's all a shame. In my experience, there's really no way to win against this mindset.

 

[Azureknight 773]

I don't understand why myself.

I was raised to believe that Catholicism is not Christian. I never accepted that, perhaps because even while I was being taught that Catholics weren't Christian, I knew that my father was raised Catholic. I knew my grandparents were Catholic. I wasn't allowed to learn anything about Catholic theology until I left home, but I certainly knew enough Catholics and had spoken with my father enough to know that Catholic theology was centered on Christ and Him crucified. I do not grasp how much more Christian you can get than that.

Later, when I started to learn in a bit more detail about specific Catholic beliefs, I never ran across a doctrine that made me go, "Woah! That just can't work for a Christian!" Most criticisms I've heard come from totally misunderstanding a doctrine.

Here's the most common example from my life. I am constantly hearing family criticize Catholics for "praying" to the saints. This is a complete misunderstanding of what is happening. as far as I know, Catholics pray only to God. Asking for prayers from the saints is no more nefarious than asking my great aunt JoBob or whatever to pray with me and believe with me for something, yes? I'll let the Catholics here elaborate on that in case I've gotten it wrong, but the point is...

There are certain things that just create a mental block in a person. Once that block has been set up, you can't get around it. All you can do is show them Christian love and pray that God will bring them around. Either He will or He won't.

You are correct! We Catholics are praying to God alone. This is praying to God through the saints is what we call "intercession". By doing this, we have these divine beings help us in the battlefield win God's approval or affirmation of our prayers as we ask the Lord through them in supplication. This is like calling to a hospital/hotel service desk that patches you to the specific service department for you to transact on phone. Likewise, this is the same with our theology upon this manner.

-AzureKnight 773

 

[mark46]

We need to go back to the Westminster Confession, where the pope is identified as the antiChrist.

Westminster Confession of Faith - Chapter 25

It is not a surprise that some Calvinists, Presbyterians, and even LCMS Lutherans accept this.

Also, Catholics are seen as rejecting the definition of Christianity: that we are saved by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus alone. Some think that Catholics think that we are partially saved by works or by the Church, both of which many Protestants think is in violation of the gospel. The Reformation was indeed about corruption in the Church and the selling of indulgences. However, it was also about defining the gospel. Protestants believed that we had lost our way and that the gospel need clarification. As so it did, unless you believe that the way to heaven was paying off the Vatican for indulgences.
=========

The bottom line is that there is much misunderstanding between many Catholics and many Protestants. For over four centuries, they have been considering each other as non-Christian, and as going to hell. There are threads on this very board stating that only Catholics will go to heaven, with very few exception. We should not be surprised if Protestants have those among them who are just as unreasonable.

It is really only since the 1960's that this arrogance on both sides has begun to diminish.

 

[seashale76]

Why do people say this? I dont quite get it.

Historically, there was extreme anti-Catholic propaganda, especially after the Reformation. Add that to real laws that existed in some places, which made Catholicism illegal, and then add a few hundred years of that sort of embedded prejudice in non-Catholic areas and families, and stir. Some churches still go out of their way to spend time explaining why they think Catholicism is wrong (I've personally witnessed this). The result? People say that Catholics can't be Christian.

 

[Nani-Day]

I've heard people say that catholic beliefs come from paganism. What do they mean?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I've heard people say that catholic beliefs come from paganism. What do they mean?

I provided 3 links to a user above that cover the basis of such beliefs.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Probably, because they're quite possibly historically illiterate morons?

It's rare that one comes across an open-minded Fundamentalist or sect-peddler genuinely willing to listen to what one wishes to convey. I had a Fundamentalist sect-peddler attempt to proselytise me whenever I was walking out of Christ's Church. He saw me walking out and no matter what I said to the poor gent, he wouldn't accept that a Christian could be a devout Roman Catholic, actually know their business and faith, and be an actual Christian. I conveyed this over and over again; but he kept to his line. I eventually cordially and congenially gave up and bid him a good day; departing in peace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I get plenty trying to save me - at my store.
Or trying to make me think its crazy to believe in God.



Whatever. Is my motto, anymore.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I meet many people who distrust or outright hate Catholicism. I usually don't bring religion up unless asked when I am with friends and coworkers, knowing full well their opinions would change of me once they find out I am Catholic.

 

[Rhamiel]

I've heard people say that catholic beliefs come from paganism. What do they mean?

there is a book that was written in 1853, called The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop

he tried to show that Catholic beliefs came from Paganism, it is not a scholarly work, a lot of it was made up with no sources given, others are things that look similar but he does not prove any relation between the two.

in Victorian England, there was a big fear of changes in the culture

the fact that Catholicism has a Hierarchy, a difference between laity, priests, bishops and the Pope,
Some Protestants claim all Christians are equal and egalitarian,
so they claim that Catholics get the idea of a hierarchy of clergy comes from paganism.

basically, anything different between Catholicism and Protestantism was blamed on Paganism, both Protestants and Atheists have used this tactic, though Atheists use this against all Christians and the Protestants just use it against Catholics.

Well the book The Two Babylons is like the grandfather of this idea, the current champion of this idea is Jack Chick and his Chick Tracts.
really bad history, misrepresenting Catholic beliefs and practices