Catholic?

[Albion]

Another false characterization. The need for purification after death IS biblical.

Its just that no one who is so sure of that can point to anywhere in Scripture where Purgatory is described.

And "the need for purification after death", does NOT prove Purgatory.

It might prove that there is a need for purification after death, but not that it is accomplished according to the specifics of the theory of Purgatory. Gut all the details out of Purgatory and leave only "purification " of some unexplained sort through some unspecified process and you might have the bare start of a definition of Purgatory, but its no definition of Purgatory by itself. Not the definition that the RCC created and taught for 500 years.

There you go getting hung up on when the word purgatory was coined.

I never am hung up on the word itself, by which I think you are suggesting that people who say Purgatory is a fiction are basing that view solely on the word not being in the Bible.

If there are such people, I am not one of them. My position has always been that the absence of the term itself is not critical but the absence of any description of it, its purpose, workings, etc. or any reference to such a place/state of being IS critical.

 

[Albion]

So which Church did Pope Damasus belong to?

Why do you ask (since we have not been talking about him)?

 

[concretecamper]

Its just that no one who is so sure of that can point to anywhere in Scripture where Purgatory is described.

Plenty of Scriptural and historical evidence has been presented many times

And "the need for purification after death", does NOT prove Purgatory.

It certainly does since that is what purgatory is for.

It might prove that there is a need for purification after death,

Then end it there instead of your veiled insults you throw at people and the Church

If there are such people, I am not one of them

but Purgatory is not named, identified, or taught in Scripture.

Good grief

 

[Albion]

Plenty of Scriptural and historical evidence has been presented many times

Actually no. Some scattered words taken from Scripture have been posted as though they are supposed to prove Purgatory, but these could and most likely do refer to any of a number of other ideas. There never has been Scriptural proof of Purgatory (by any name) given here, because there isn't any.

But you can try doing it yourself, if you are that confident. I've asked before--what is Purgatory, how does it work, who goes there, what is it like there, why do they go there, can anything moderate or set aside their experience there, if so what is it, and so on.

And please, no "Its purification, that's it."

Well, arguably, so is a ten minute shower bath or a dozen other quick an inoffensive actions--and that is NOT what the church defined as Purgatory!

 

[concretecamper]

Actually no. Some scattered words taken from Scripture have been posted as though they are supposed to prove Purgatory, but these could and most likely do refer to any of a number of other ideas. There never has been Scriptural proof of Purgatory (by any name) given here, because there isn't any.

Actually Yes. It's like groundhog day with some. Anyone can certainly research purgatory on this forum.

I've asked before--what is Purgatory, how does it work, who goes there, what is it like there, why do they go there, can anything moderate or set aside their experience there, if so what is it, and so on.

That because the answers to most of your questions havent been divinely revealed. Great saints and theologians have speculated. But if you find somewhere were God tells us exactly what it is like, please let me be the first to know!

 

[PoppyB]

@PoppyB

Here is the Gospel reading from last Sunday. Meditate on what it must mean. Jesus promised the Spirit, to guide the Church. Sola Sciptura is against Jesus' own words.

Jesus said to his disciples:
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own,
but he will speak what he hears,
and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me,
because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine;
for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine
and declare it to you."

To the Church in general the work of Jesus on the Cross should be at the forefront of its teachings, the Gospel of Salvation by the blood of Jesus, bringing sinners to repentance and into that spiritual re-birth that separates a true Christian from a mere believer in God or somebody who is just a churchgoer of any denomination.

And then following on from that re-birth should be the teaching about the Holy Spirit and our necessity of his presence in our lives, the filling or baptism in the Holy Spirit who gives us help, guidance and power to live the Christian Way.

Once we are born again we are then holy temples, a dwelling place, for God as Christ lives in us. If we were still sinners God would not be able to live in us as he does as he can have no fellowship with sin.

Many people will have clever arguments and well-honed answers which will be able to contradict what I have said but I have prayed and pondered on the matter and my words here are the result and I believe are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And no single denomination has the right to call itself the only true church. The True Church is made up of all born again, Spirit filled Christians worldwide, of whatever background, tradition, denomination or none. The true church has Jesus as its cornerstone and foundation and we are all living stones built onto that solid foundation.

The Church should always be guided by the Holy Spirit with Jesus as its head and at its heart. If it isn't then it is not true to God. But I wonder why the RCC is the only part of the church to have been shown such traditions, doctrines and dogmas as are practised by its clergy and members.

 

[Augustus_33AD]

To the Church in general the work of Jesus on the Cross should be at the forefront of its teachings, the Gospel of Salvation by the blood of Jesus, bringing sinners to repentance and into that spiritual re-birth that separates a true Christian from a mere believer in God or somebody who is just a churchgoer of any denomination.

And then following on from that re-birth should be the teaching about the Holy Spirit and our necessity of his presence in our lives, the filling or baptism in the Holy Spirit who gives us help, guidance and power to live the Christian Way.

Once we are born again we are then holy temples, a dwelling place, for God as Christ lives in us. If we were still sinners God would not be able to live in us as he does as he can have no fellowship with sin.

Many people will have clever arguments and well-honed answers which will be able to contradict what I have said but I have prayed and pondered on the matter and my words here are the result and I believe are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And no single denomination has the right to call itself the only true church. The True Church is made up of all born again, Spirit filled Christians worldwide, of whatever background, tradition, denomination or none. The true church has Jesus as its cornerstone and foundation and we are all living stones built onto that solid foundation.

The Church should always be guided by the Holy Spirit with Jesus as its head and at its heart. If it isn't then it is not true to God. But I wonder why the RCC is the only part of the church to have been shown such traditions, doctrines and dogmas as are practised by its clergy and members.

What if I told you the Catholic Church teaches almost all those things?

 

[Major1]

Yes, that's what Sola Scriptura means.

Yes, that is correct. I did not mean to suggest otherwise. In the context of this thread
my thinking was that reading the Bible would be a great benefit for those who do not do so and simple allow their priest to tell them what the Bible says.

The RCC relies on the authorty of the Pope where we as Protestants believe the Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.

So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines.

Thanks for your correction and input.

 

[Major1]

My "local church" did not say that. History did. Look up the process by which the canon of the Bible was formed. That is all you need to know that you are wrong.

I can not agree with your opinion and I do not think many others can either.

Any time the church. ANY church is placed in a position of more power and authority than God Himself, that my friend is a real problem even if you can not see that.

The Roman Catholic Church came into existence in the late 4th century long after the Council of Nicea. The Roman Catholic Church neither invented nor created the Holy Bible. The books of the Holy Bible were well recognized in ancient days as we can well see from early church quotations in Ante-Nicene fathers’ writings.

The Council of Nice did not pick and choose which books would or would not go into the Bible. They simply and publicly testified what books were already recognized by Christ’s universal church, having a great consensus among themselves. The later Roman Catholic Church only gathered the manuscripts.
The Roman Catholic Church did NOT give us the Bible

 

[Major1]

Where in the New Testament does it say that everything pertaining to Christianity is found within its pages?

That does not answer the question asked now does it???.

Would you like to read the Bible and answer the question Anthony?

Actually it is very, very easy. Where in the Scriptures is there a record or command or direction wherein the succession of the Apostolic office is given????

However, thanks for your question and the answer is Philippians 4:19 ………...
"But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."

1 Corinthians 3:21-23 ………….
"Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ {is} God's."

 

[PoppyB]

What if I told you the Catholic Church teaches almost all those things?

I would believe you as I know Catholics - both ex and present - who are definitely born again.

It is the 'extras' I can't get my head around. Things that are not in the bible. And you know what those are I'm sure.

 

[Major1]

Tha

The problem with that approach is, it doesn't give the reader the full picture of Christianity, as taught by the apostles - only Scripture AND Tradition (ie, the traditions taught by the apostles) can.

That is an incorrect answer my friend.

The Apostles DID NOT teach that we are to call a priest our "Father".
The Apostles DID NOT teach the immaculate conception of Mary.
The Apostles DID NOT teach the sinlessness of Mary.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on Purgatory.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on works needed to be saved.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on infants needing to be baptized to be saved.

Sola Scriptura is correctly understood as the teaching by which everything a Christian needs for salvation and holy living is contained solely in the Bible.

 

[PoppyB]

Tha


That is an incorrect answer my friend.

The Apostles DID NOT teach that we are to call a priest our "Father".
The Apostles DID NOT teach the immaculate conception of Mary.
The Apostles DID NOT teach the sinlessness of Mary.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on Purgatory.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on works needed to be saved.
The Apostles DID NOT teach one single word on infants needing to be baptized to be saved.

Sola Scriptura is correctly understood as the teaching by which everything a Christian needs for salvation and holy living is contained solely in the Bible.

I've been reading 1 and 2 Peter and can't see that the 'founder' even taught such things.

 

[Albion]

But we have to address significant issues if the point is to be made. Some of these on the list are open to question and some are downright incorrect.

 

[Major1]

The Catholic Church agrees with you. But Jesus appointed certain men to teach and lead His Church on earth.

The office of apostle ended when John died in about 95 AD.

There is no such thing as Apostolic Succession found in the Bible.

 

[Major1]

I've been reading 1 and 2 Peter and can't see that the 'founder' even taught such things.

That is because none of those practices are found in the Bible.

 

[PoppyB]

But we have to address significant issues if the point is to be made. Some of these on the list are open to question and some are downright incorrect.

I don't know how you can read your bible and still believe that the points Major 1 made are incorrect or open to question.

 

[Major1]

It came initially from the apostles, who were taught by Jesus and later guided by the Holy Spirit. The teaching and practices handed down by the apostles have been passed on faithfully by the Church ever since. Some evolutions of the original teachings and practices have been adopted by the Church - under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - over the centuries.

And a LOT of the RCC teachings have been added by Popes because they just wanted to.

What about "Indulgences"????

Indulgences have been part of Catholic doctrine since the Crusades. When the Church offered them for sale in the 1500s — call it mercy for money.
Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

 

[Major1]

But we have to address significant issues if the point is to be made. Some of these on the list are open to question and some are downright incorrect.

Which ones are "questionable"?

Which ones are "downright incorrect"???

 

[Major1]

The Catholic Church agrees with you. But Jesus appointed certain men to teach and lead His Church on earth.

Yes He did. The Protestant church agrees with you. However, they also wrote down there words and teachings in a book called the Bible.

When the last apostle died, the office of apostle ended and we now have the completed Word of God.