Catholic way

[concretecamper]

For anyone interestred in a good explanation on what the Church actually teaches instead of spewing lies, read the link below.

Ironically enough, I've actually been called a "rank heretic" and unsaved on this very forum for leaving the RCC.

Yep, the Church does teach that if you reject Christ as you did, your salvation is in serious jeopardy.

1. “What about Catholics who have left the Faith? Are they okay, or are they lost?”

Anyone who knowingly and deliberately rejects the Church will be lost, as I said above. So it would be the height of presumption to say that someone who has left the Faith “is okay.” Now, it may well be that a person who left the Faith may have had such a distorted notion of what the Church truly is and what she teaches that there may not be culpability. Again, we don’t know. However, it may well be that they are culpable. And no amount of “church” attendance or prayer apart from the Church Jesus established, the Catholic Church, will get them to heaven if that is the case. One might even “deliver [one’s] body to be burned” (I Cor. 13:3), but it will “profit nothing” apart from union with Christ and his Church because it is only the divine life and charity of Christ in us that can save us. So we must take extremely serious anyone who has left the faith or anyone who is not in union with the Church because objectively speaking, (barring invincible ignorance, etc.) souls are on the line!

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers

 

[Phil 1:21]

For anyone interestred in a good explanation on what the Church actually teaches instead of spewing lies, read the link below.



Yep, the Church does teach that if you reject Christ as you did, your salvation is in serious jeopardy.

1. “What about Catholics who have left the Faith? Are they okay, or are they lost?”

Anyone who knowingly and deliberately rejects the Church will be lost, as I said above. So it would be the height of presumption to say that someone who has left the Faith “is okay.” Now, it may well be that a person who left the Faith may have had such a distorted notion of what the Church truly is and what she teaches that there may not be culpability. Again, we don’t know. However, it may well be that they are culpable. And no amount of “church” attendance or prayer apart from the Church Jesus established, the Catholic Church, will get them to heaven if that is the case. One might even “deliver [one’s] body to be burned” (I Cor. 13:3), but it will “profit nothing” apart from union with Christ and his Church because it is only the divine life and charity of Christ in us that can save us. So we must take extremely serious anyone who has left the faith or anyone who is not in union with the Church because objectively speaking, (barring invincible ignorance, etc.) souls are on the line!

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers

Yep, case in point.

 

[Yarddog]

You have got to be kidding us!!!!

Nope. Anyone who knows what the Catholic Church teaches knows this. Anyone who says different is fooling themselves.

 

[Yarddog]

Really????

Here are some modern documents to read on this matter.
Vatican II Lumen Gentium 14-16
Catechism THE ENTIRE SECTION ON THE HOLY SPIRIT
Dominus Iesus

You can read the historical pronouncements in THE CHRISTIAN FAITH: In the Doctrinal Documents of the Catholic Church by Dupuis.

The Catholic Church teaches that
1. The Catholic Church is the Ark outside of which no one at all is saved.
2. One enters into the Catholic Church by baptism, which may be by water blood or desire.
3. Religious Truth exists outside of the Church, but these exist as preparation for the Gospel and entrance into the Catholic Church.
4. No organization besides the Catholic Church brings about salvation. They may have elements that help in salvation, but those organizations are not by themselves salvific.
5. Much of the time, other religions have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and have followed demons (read Lumen Gentium 16)
6. An individual is not punished for not entering the Catholic Church or knowing Christ if they did not have the capability for knowing these things or did not have the reasonable expectation for finding out the truth. All people are obliged however to find and seek the truth.
7. An individual who dies before entering the Church MAY be saved if the individual was inculpable for not knowing Christ or the Church, tried to do Gods will to the best of their knowledge, and they had an implicit desire to enter the Church and know Christ and this implicit desire must be informed by God's grace.

Read Ratzingers Called to Communion and Principles of Catholic THeology:Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology

Why did you mention lumen gentium if you didn't apparently read it? Chapter 2 paragraph 15 wipes out your claim.

Within this document, the Catholic Church means more than the Roman Catholic Church. All those United to Christ through his story Spirit are included.

 

[TuxAme]

I was raised a mixture of Anglican and Catholic. I became some sort of agnostic or atheist after my Catholic Confirmation. I returned to Christianity in college, and even though I went to Catholic Mass (this was a Catholic college), I still would have said, "A man can't forgive sins" or "The Eucharist is just a symbol" if asked. That's what I was saying in my agnostic years as well. However, I was suddenly a very devout believer and started reading the Bible on my own, not to mention reading Catholic resources to find out what one of the two faiths of my childhood taught. It was because of these resources that I discovered the early Church Fathers.

Among other reasons, I am Catholic today because only one Church existed in 33 A.D., and the witnesses of the early Church only pointed "to Rome". How could I be anywhere else?

 

[Antig]

You can see how the Catholic view fits the Bible like a jigsaw?????

Where then in your Bible did you see that YOU have to do something to be saved as is taught by the RCC?

Will you please post the Book, chapter and verse for me please?

Sorry but I have been reading a few resources about the Catholic Church and it all looks so true to me. It goes back to the time of Christ too. It's amazing.

Faith without works is dead though. Surely you have seen that in the Bible?

 

[Antig]

Why did you mention lumen gentium if you didn't apparently read it? Chapter 2 paragraph 15 wipes out your claim.

Within this document, the Catholic Church means more than the Roman Catholic Church. All those United to Christ through his story Spirit are included.

I agree with you on that as I just read it. Maybe many years ago the church said only Catholics were saved but it's stance now, looking at its writings is different.

 

[Antig]

Among other reasons, I am Catholic today because only one Church existed in 33 A.D., and the witnesses of the early Church only pointed "to Rome". How could I be anywhere else?

That's another point that pulls me back to Catholicism. The fact that it can be traced back to Peter. It was the only church. It was the first. It was only after the reformation that other churches rose.

Am I right in saying that the Catholic Church does not rely on just the Bible? Surely if one uses just the Bible in ones life then one is open to errors as one would lack spiritual direction from ordained men of God? The Apostles / Desciples were ordained men of God. They were the ones who could teach and explain the word of God. Isn't that what we have today in the Holy Priesthood?

I don't think I would be happy reading the Bible, on my own, without direction. Without a solid background to fall back on. I have seen many many different views on scripture from many different churches! Which view is the right one?

Is a new churches view the right one or is it that the oldest church, the original church of Christ has the correct view?

It's fascinating trying to research this. So far, it all points to the Catholic Church for me. But, it's early days. I have read so much this week! Lol

 

[Yarddog]

I agree with you on that as I just read it. Maybe many years ago the church said only Catholics were saved but it's stance now, looking at its writings is different.

The Catholic Church hasn't denied anyone the possibility of attaining heaven in their doctrine. They know that God will judge, not the CC and God can show mercy upon whomever he chooses.

 

[Antig]

The Catholic Church hasn't denied anyone the possibility of attaining heaven in their doctrine. They know that God will judge, not the CC and God can show mercy upon whomever he chooses.

Yes, I see that but, many many years ago the Catholic Church did proclaim one had to be a Catholic to be saved. Yes?

 

[seeking.IAM]

I was UMC for many years, primarily because I was born into it. I arrived at a point in my life where I yearned for a more liturgical, apostolic, and traditional faith practice. I was very attracted to Orthodoxy and less so to Catholicism. I found a home in The Episcopal Church as the closest thing to that worship practice that also welcomed all baptized Christians to participate in the Eucharist. I have a strongly held personal conviction that churches should not deny the Eucharist to any baptized Christian so that was a primary factor ruling out for me Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and the LCMS.

A secondary factor was timing. I made my conversion at the height of the Catholic priest abuse scandal. I could not affiliate with a church whose clergy I could not respect or trust and whose hierarchy swept child abuse under the rug. I've made a career of working with abuse victims; I couldn't do it.

 

[Yarddog]

Yes, I see that but, many many years ago the Catholic Church did proclaim one had to be a Catholic to be saved. Yes?

A lot of the problem comes from how a person defines words such as saved, the Church, faith, etc... If a Pentecostal defines "saved" differently from Catholics, or Lutherans and reads their documents, confusion of what is says can and most likely will occur. So, one needs to look to understand what each means by the words.

If we look at the world as a vast sea which a great storm is raging, the Church is a rescue boat which provides safety to those pulled out of the raging waters. No one is asking if people are a Catholic or Baptist, etc... but instead the question is, "Do you believe? "

By being pulled into the boat, people have been saved but the boat is still in the raging waters. We may look out and see paradise off in the distance but there are still people in the waters that need our help, so we plow through the waters as we head toward Paradise saving all that we can.

As we sail towards shore, we are being saved by the safety of the boat. If you have read the parable of the shower, you know that not all who have received God remain in God. God knows some people will jump back into the raging waters. They aren't saved any longer but still may be able to reach shore and find mercy.

Those who remain within the safety of the boat and reach Paradise have reached their salvation. The Captain of this mighty ship is Jesus Christ.

God bless

 

[Major1]

Sorry but I have been reading a few resources about the Catholic Church and it all looks so true to me. It goes back to the time of Christ too. It's amazing.

Faith without works is dead though. Surely you have seen that in the Bible?

I must apologize to you. I misunderstood your 1st comment ...........
"I guess I am searching for the truth, or a nudge in the right direction or even just good solid Christian advice. I have my own views on the subject too but want to see how others decided. Thank you".

Clearly it seems tome that you had already made that decision because you are pretty much rejecting all the Biblical truth being presented to in favor of the Catholic traditions.

That is absolutely your choice and you of course are free to do that. But to answer your question of................"Faith without works is dead though. Surely you have seen that in the Bible?"

Yes I have in fact read that a couple of times but it is also clear that you do not understand what the Scriptures are actually saying. Allow me to explain it to you and then YOU can use your computer and do the study for yourself in order to confirm what is said.

The phrase you asked about is found in James 2:26 where James says........
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”.

NOW why is that the case and WHY did James say that?????

Because Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14–26 is almost always taken out of context by those who want to interject works by the lost man in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. You have just done exactly that very thing.

James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10.
James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

The bottom line truth, which you said you were looking for is that many people are "Religious" and profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise.

Jesus put it this way in Matthew 7:16-23 as He spoke directly to the question YOU asked................ “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’”.

 

[Major1]

Why did you mention lumen gentium if you didn't apparently read it? Chapter 2 paragraph 15 wipes out your claim.

Within this document, the Catholic Church means more than the Roman Catholic Church. All those United to Christ through his story Spirit are included.

Of course that is true which was the point. The Church is not just the Catholic church or the Methodist church or the Baptist church or the Pentecostal church.

The church is NOT a building but a body of believers united by faith in Christ and nothing else.
The point was that every person can be saved and does not mean that only a Catholic can be saved as was taught by the RCC for many years.

 

[Yarddog]

Of course that is true which was the point. The Church is not just the Catholic church or the Methodist church or the Baptist church or the Pentecostal church.

The church is NOT a building but a body of believers united by faith in Christ and nothing else.
The point was that every person can be saved and does not mean that only a Catholic can be saved as was taught by the RCC for many years.

Evidently, you don't get the point and show that you just don't know what the Catholic Church has taught. Vatican II did not change Church dogma.

 

[Antig]

I must apologize to you. I misunderstood your 1st comment ...........
"I guess I am searching for the truth, or a nudge in the right direction or even just good solid Christian advice. I have my own views on the subject too but want to see how others decided. Thank you".

Clearly it seems tome that you had already made that decision because you are pretty much rejecting all the Biblical truth being presented to in favor of the Catholic traditions.

That is absolutely your choice and you of course are free to do that. But to answer your question of................"Faith without works is dead though. Surely you have seen that in the Bible?"

Yes I have in fact read that a couple of times but it is also clear that you do not understand what the Scriptures are actually saying. Allow me to explain it to you and then YOU can use your computer and do the study for yourself in order to confirm what is said.

The phrase you asked about is found in James 2:26 where James says........
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”.

NOW why is that the case and WHY did James say that?????

Because Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14–26 is almost always taken out of context by those who want to interject works by the lost man in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. You have just done exactly that very thing.

James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10.
James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

The bottom line truth, which you said you were looking for is that many people are "Religious" and profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise.

Jesus put it this way in Matthew 7:16-23 as He spoke directly to the question YOU asked................ “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’”.

I am searching, yes. Thing is, the more I search, the more I feel closer to the Catholic Church!

I thank you for your posts.

Jesus told us to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked. These are works. One has to have faith in God though. To do works without faith is worthless. I have seen others post that even the devil has faith in God! True faith surely emits good works. Faith alone is nothing. One cannot say I believe and then that's it.

Many will say Lord, Lord. But, were they true believers? Did they do as Jesus taught?

I can see that you do indeed see the Catholic Church differently. For me, it has been such a MASSIVE eye opener researching my faith. I can see the Biblical side better now. But, it's early days. I am learning daily.

Thank you

 

[Guadalupana]

I was brought up Southern Baptist and from a long line of Dunkers and Southern Baptists. I became serious about my faith in my late teens and started to study in earnest. I became convinced of the Catholic faith, started attending a Catholic church, entered RCIA (twice to be certain), and converted when I was 23.

 

[tadoflamb]

Can I ask those that are Catholic why you chose the Catholic route and those that are not why you didn'?

Though I was baptized as an infant in a Methodist church, my parents didn't raise me in the Christian faith. In fact, my father was rather antagonistic towards Christians. I was much the same way. So, it came as no small surprise to me, when I was called to be Catholic. It's not something I had planned for or expected.

All my life I had suffered what I call a 'holy longing'. I was on the outside looking into Christianity, I wanted to belong, but because of the loss of Christianity's collective evangelical voice, I could never bring myself to believe.

Then, about 15 years ago there were some things going on in my life that I couldn't explain. They just didn't make sense. So, in a moment of desperation, one day standing out in my hummingbird garden I said, "Jesus, I give up. If You want me, you can have me". Then, frightened by the fog of protestant denominationalism, my earliest prayer was, "Lord, let me know you, the way You want to be known".

Very quickly it became readily apparent that I was being called to the Catholic Church. That fall I was enrolled on RCIA, I was confirmed Catholic at the Easter Vigil the next year and shortly after that was asked to be an altar server at my parish.

Prayers answered.

I guess the short answer to why I chose to become Catholic is that I didn't choose, I was chosen. Matthew 18:12-14 sums up my conversion story best.

 

[Fidelibus]

Yes I have in fact read that a couple of times but it is also clear that you do not understand what the Scriptures are actually saying. Allow me to explain it to you and then YOU can use your computer and do the study for yourself in order to confirm what is said.

The phrase you asked about is found in James 2:26 where James says........
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”.

NOW why is that the case and WHY did James say that?????

Really Maj1? Let me ask you something, why might Antig or anyone else for that matter should care what your "explanation" is? Why do you feel Antig, myself, or anyone else reading "your explanation" should be willing to gamble his, her, or our salvation on your fallible interpretation?

Why should we care what your explanation is? You might be willing to gamble your salvation on your fallible interpretation of the Bible, but why should we? Since you are not infallible Maj1, (you do believe you are, correct?), could you be wrong about your interpretation of this verse or the Bible in general? If not, by what authority Maj do you tell us that what your explaination is right, and what Antig, myself, or the rest of us think is wrong.

The bottom line truth, which you said you were looking for is that many people are "Religious" and profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise.

Say's who?

 

[Basil the Great]

Yes, I see that but, many many years ago the Catholic Church did proclaim one had to be a Catholic to be saved. Yes?

Absolutely they did. You can look at many things regarding this, but the two Papal Bulls of the Middle Ages, Unam Sanctam and especially Cantate Domino, is all one really needs to know what the Church did teach and mind you, ex cathedra, with the authority of Papal Infallibility.