Catholic Question From Lutheran Belief

[FaithT]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

Hi, short answer: When they excommunicated Luther, they effectively excluded themselves from fellowship with us. They are the schismatics, not us.

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi, short answer: When they excommunicated Luther, they effectively excluded themselves from fellowship with us. They are the schismatics, not us.

very interesting perspective. So if I get tossed out of a meeting I could claim that I removed the meeting. Very interesting and creative as well.

 

[prodromos]

very interesting perspective. So if I get tossed out of a meeting I could claim that I removed the meeting. Very interesting and creative as well.

(cough) Cardinal Humbert (cough)

 

[disciple Clint]

(cough) Cardinal Humbert (cough)

The Schism

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

very interesting perspective. So if I get tossed out of a meeting I could claim that I removed the meeting. Very interesting and creative as well.

That would depend why you were tossed. Excommunication over unrepented sin is valid; excommunication for upholding Scripture, both law and Gospel, is invaled.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

(cough) Cardinal Humbert (cough)

The Catholics just can't help themselves it would seem.

 

[disciple Clint]

That would depend why you were tossed. Excommunication over unrepented sin is valid; excommunication for upholding Scripture, both law and Gospel, is invaled.

Luther was a RC priest as such he is required to accept the teachings of the Church or be excommunicated. Even worse he tired to defend his positions and could not, then he was given the chance to change his mind and remain in the church but he maintained his pride and got excommunicated. Later he wrote some very controversial things about the Jews and some of his table talk notes are disgusting.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

The RCC claims Jesus founded it, but of course, Jesus did not found it just like He did not found any of the protestant denominations.

The disciples started meeting and the movement was known as The Way.

The RCC just claims that Peter was the first Pope and thus they claim it was founded by Jesus.

Jesus didn't say, "Hey, come here and worship me." Jesus hung out with sinners, healed the sick, cared for the poor, and taught his apostles to do those same things. He gave the great commission to spread the word all over the world.

The disciples visiting and writing to churches spread Jesus's message and what was known, said, and written about Him.

RCCs, at some point, looked back and decided that popes went back to Peter.. They determined by just looking back and figuring out who it looked like was pope before each person they considered pope, even without hard evidence and just simple text of people being leaders or rules . . .

 

[FaithT]

The RCC claims Jesus founded it, but of course, Jesus did not found it just like He did not found any of the protestant denominations.

The disciples started meeting and the movement was known as The Way.

The RCC just claims that Peter was the first Pope and thus they claim it was founded by Jesus.

Jesus didn't say, "Hey, come here and worship me." Jesus hung out with sinners, healed the sick, cared for the poor, and taught his apostles to do those same things. He gave the great commission to spread the word all over the world.

The disciples visiting and writing to churches spread Jesus's message and what was known, said, and written about Him.

RCCs, at some point, looked back and decided that popes went back to Peter.. They determined by just looking back and figuring out who it looked like was pope before each person they considered pope, even without hard evidence and just simple text of people being leaders or rules . . .

How could they be able to tell who succeeded whom?

 

[Daniel9v9]

The Church is established by Christ. That is not the Roman Catholic Church, but it does include Roman Catholics as well as Lutherans.

The distinction is this: The Roman Catholic Church insist that they are the true church, but the Lutheran Church along with others make the distinction between the visible and the invisible church. The visible church consists of believers and unbelievers, whereas the invisible Church only of believers. And this invisible Church is the Church, proper, and this is neither the Roman Catholic nor the Lutheran Church, nor any other denomination.

The Roman Catholic Church essentially teaches that there is only a visible church which consists of whoever swears allegiance to the Pope. But we say that the Holy Church is the communion of saints and true believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, our one God and one Lord Jesus Christ, where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered.

I've written an article on the Church if you're interested: The Church
You may not have to read the whole thing, but perhaps you'll find the following parts useful: Apostolic, Catholic, Denominations, and Authority.

God bless! +

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Luther was a RC priest as such he is required to accept the teachings of the Church or be excommunicated. Even worse he tired to defend his positions and could not, then he was given the chance to change his mind and remain in the church but he maintained his pride and got excommunicated. Later he wrote some very controversial things about the Jews and some of his table talk notes are disgusting.

It has been long proved that if you take Papal authority out of the equasion, and look at the Augsburg confession with an "unbiassed" eye, that his teachings were not at odds with the Catholic Church. There were Catholic Bishops and a Cardinal that were original signatories to the Augsburg Confession.

You also forget that Luther was a man, and like all men a poor miserable sinner. Remember also that while Luther, in your words, was uncharitable towards the Jews, the Catholic Church put more rubber on the road with the inquisition when it came to injustice towards the Jews, Muslims and Protestant thought. Luther did not have a monopoly on uncharitable thoughts, words and actions.

Today, one of the greatest injustice perpitrated by "christians" is Zionism; while Jew friendly, shows just how litle chairity many so-called christians have towards Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Palestine. Presently, I believe, that Zionism is one the greatest heresies facing the Church.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The RCC claims Jesus founded it, but of course, Jesus did not found it just like He did not found any of the protestant denominations.

The disciples started meeting and the movement was known as The Way.

The RCC just claims that Peter was the first Pope and thus they claim it was founded by Jesus.

Jesus didn't say, "Hey, come here and worship me." Jesus hung out with sinners, healed the sick, cared for the poor, and taught his apostles to do those same things. He gave the great commission to spread the word all over the world.

The disciples visiting and writing to churches spread Jesus's message and what was known, said, and written about Him.

RCCs, at some point, looked back and decided that popes went back to Peter.. They determined by just looking back and figuring out who it looked like was pope before each person they considered pope, even without hard evidence and just simple text of people being leaders or rules . . .

Actually the Holy Spirit founded the Church catholic on Penticost.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How could they be able to tell who succeeded whom?

Interestingly, I read a paper recently that shows that the Lutherans in Europe can actually trace their Apostolic Succession back a few hundered years earlier than the Catholic Church, and that Presbyterial Ordination was not uncommon in the CC prior to the Reformation.

 

[disciple Clint]

It has been long proved that if you take Papal authority out of the equasion, and look at the Augsburg confession with an "unbiassed" eye, that his teachings were not at odds with the Catholic Church. There were Catholic Bishops and a Cardinal that were original signatories to the Augsburg Confession.

You also forget that Luther was a man, and like all men a poor miserable sinner. Remember also that while Luther, in your words, was uncharitable towards the Jews, the Catholic Church put more rubber on the road with the inquisition when it came to injustice towards the Jews, Muslims and Protestant thought. Luther did not have a monopoly on uncharitable thoughts, words and actions.

Today, one of the greatest injustice perpitrated by "christians" is Zionism; while Jew friendly, shows just how litle chairity many so-called christians have towards Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Palestine. Presently, I believe, that Zionism is one the greatest heresies facing the Church.

He had at least 95 at odds with the Catholic Church.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

He had at least 95 at odds with the Catholic Church.

Have you read them? Martin Luther's 95 Theses

Like the Augsburg Confession, not a lot in there that is at odds with the Church; it was abuses that Luther took issue with. At the time these were written, Luther still accepted Papal authority.

 

[disciple Clint]

Have you read them? Martin Luther's 95 Theses

Like the Augsburg Confession, not a lot in there that is at odds with the Church; it was abuses that Luther took issue with. At the time these were written, Luther still accepted Papal authority.

Except for the method of salvation, and a few books that he did not feel should be in the Bible and a number of other things. What Do Lutherans Believe and Practice?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Except for the method of salvation, and a few books that he did not feel should be in the Bible and a number of other things. What Do Lutherans Believe and Practice?

Actually, the whole Church took a similar view of these books, including Rome, until the closure of the canon. When was the canon closed, you might ask, and by whom? Not until the Council of Trent. So Not only did the Lutherans hold this; we still do, and so do the Orthodox; Anglicans too. BTW, since the Orthodox retans this view, and the CC has extended Eucharistic fellowship to them, this was no deal breaker. BTW many Catholic Theologians still take this same view of Scripture: Antilegomena - Wikipedia

The method of Salvation is Biblical.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

How could they be able to tell who succeeded whom?

This is the basic understanding of Apostolic Succession, "I was ordained by Nicholas, who was ordained by Irenaeus, who was ordained by John the Apostle." It simply traced who you received your teaching and training from and were accepted by someone recognized within the church. If someone said, "Well God Himself revealed these teachings to me", most likely they were not going to be recognized as a teacher in the church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He had at least 95 at odds with the Catholic Church.

You'll note that no where in the 95 Theses did Luther take issue with the Catholic Church. Thinking that the 95 Theses are "against the Catholic Church" fundamentally misunderstands the character and context of the 95 Theses.

Firstly, let's be clear what the 95 Theses were. Luther was the head of the theology department at Wittenberg University, and the church door at Wittenberg was the university's bulletin board. When faculty wished to debate a subject, they would post the topic of discussion on the church door.

The 95 Theses were written in Latin, they were intended as an invitation for discussion and debate on the topic of indulgences. Luther's intent was to defend Catholicism--and the papacy itself--against the abuses of the selling of indulgences. That was the intent and point of the writing and posting of the 95 Theses against the selling of indulgences.

The 95 Theses aren't even really all that "Lutheran", but it does represent a point in time of Luther's thinking, which would mature in time.

A far more important set of theses are the 28 Theses of the Heidelberg Disputation (1518), here Luther's theology shows itself in a more mature way, in particular as he communicates the dichotomy of Law and Gospel, on the false theologies of glory and the faithful and truthful Theology of the Cross. It is here, in the 28 Theses of the Heidelberg Disputation that we actually start to see something distinctively Lutheran emerge--not in a vacuum, not in isolation, and not against the Catholic Church; but as a Catholic faith specifically shaped by the strong emphasis on Christ and His cross.

That true Catholic Christian theology cannot be found in the metaphysical conjectures of Scholastic philosophy, but rather instead only and solely by the Divine Revelation of God Himself in Jesus Christ. The philosopher's God is a hidden and naked God (Deus Absconditus et Nudus), and at best can only get us to the ignorance St. Paul talks about in Romans chapter 1, that God's power is displayed in creation, but men worshiped the creature rather than the Creator. Acknowledging God's glory, power, righteousness, wisdom, virtue, etc doesn't mean anything, even the Pagans recognize divine glory and power displayed in creation, but it does not lead them to the worship of the true God. Which is why it is only God incarnated, revealed, and clothed in Jesus Christ (Deus Revelatus) that actually shows us the Father, and is therefore the "Way, truth, and the life, no one may come to the Father except by Me".

It is in Christ that we meet God. And it is only in Christ that we can say anything meaningful about God, namely His weakness, humility, suffering, and humanity.

Speaking of the invisible things of God doesn't make one "worthy or wise" says Luther. Rather, true theology acknowledges God visible in the suffering and cross of Jesus.

God is found not in invisible things which we are left to speculate endlessly about; rather God is found in the manifest, visible, tangible, external things: there is true flesh, blood, and bones of Jesus' body; He died on the cross, He rose from the dead, He bears the visible marks of His passion, He is bodily present in, with, and under the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

This is not "against the Catholic Church". This is Catholic Christianity.

So simply put, it's not Lutherans who left the Catholic Church. We never left, we were and have always been, faithful, believing Catholic Christians. It's Rome that is out of alignment with the Catholic faith. It is Rome that needs to be restored to communion.

That does not mean that we deny that Rome is truly a Christian Church. Roman Catholics are our fellow Christians, plain and simple. All who have received Holy Baptism are members of Christ's holy and Mystical Body, all who have faith are believers in the one and same Christ and sharers of the one and same faith; and thus we have drank from the one and same Spirit as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12. It just means that, in its visible structures, Roman Catholicism is not "The Catholic Church", but she is, in the Communion of the Saints, heir to the same Church Catholic which Christ established through His Apostles.

-CryptoLutheran