Catholic prayer question: Why are your prayers often repeated over and over?

[Philip_B]

Now, @GreekOrthodox @ViaCrucis @prodromos @concretecamper @MarkRohfrietsch @hedrick @Paidiske @Philip_B Would you say that as a divine attribute, specifically, a name of Christ, the Logos, would it be fair to say that wisdom can only be granted by the grace of God, and that non Christians who apparently have wisdom either have received authentic wisdom by divine grace, so as to further the economy of salvation, or else have false wisdom, imparted by demonic suggestions and fueled by pride, such as what we see in false religious leaders like Mary Baker Eddy, L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, the Bhagwan Shrew Rajneesh, Keith Raniere of NXIVM, and so forth, as well as evil dictators and terrorists such as Muhammed Ahmed al Mahdi, the orchestrators of the genocide of Armenian, Syriac/Assyrian and Pontic Greek Christians, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Benito Mussolini, Antonio Salazar, Enver Hoxha, Erich Honnecker, Osama bin Laden, and Caliph al-Baghdadi?

My view is that all true wisdom is grace and of God and the apprehension of it is not limited to the baptised, to the institution, to the books, however these things will help us understand the true ultimate source of wisdom.

 

[pdudgeon]

>>Why not just talk to Him?
>Because I don't want to forget the honor that He is due, first of all.

How would you feel if you were talking to someone and they kept repeating the same thing over and over?

>The object of prayer is not to bring God down to my level, but to bring me up to His!

Absolutely.

>I remember many years ago hearing a preacher ask us this question:
"If you suddenly encountered God, how would you react?"
I didn't have to think about that, because I knew!
I would be flat on my face before Him!

But would you repeat what you said to Him over and over? That's what I don't understand. God doesn't have a memory problem. Remember Jesus reminding us that the Father knows what we need already? It seems like Catholics use this to get into some sort of mental state. That, to me, doesn't sound right. I know you mean well. I just think you may be playing with fire. Just think of all the cults and Satanic groups around the world that also do the very same thing. Why do they do it? I believe its because it puts their minds into a more receptive mode for the devil to enter. You may think you are doing it for God to enter. But why not just talk to Him normally? Why not just open your heart to Him and talk? I believe we were made in the image of God so we can communicate easily with our Father.

Why not?
Because your question assumes several things:
1.it assumes self knowledge that might not be present.
2. It assumes that we will hear God's answer.
3. We will be aware that God is talking back to us.
Communication is always a two way street, and it's much more complicated that you realize.

 

[Jamdoc]

actually funny thing about that idea that God shouldn't lower Himself down to our level..

He did, and He continues to, in order to relate to us and reveal Himself to us.
We CAN'T go to His level. For Him to relate to us at all He has to lower Himself to us, because of our finite nature and our flaws.

Think of a Father interacting with his beloved son or daughter, would he just speak over their heads in ways that they cannot understand and expect them to "get on my level?" No. he will sit on the floor and play tea parties with his daughter, or teach his son to play football and other sports and... let him win.

You may dislike my use of human activities to describe God but is it so strange? God designed the parent and child relationship and it points to our relationship with Him, and God Himself took on our flesh and let evil men "win" against Him in a horrible way for our benefit.

That is why I choose Jesus over all the other religions of the world. Because He is a God I can actually have a relationship with.
Islam teaches a God that is exalted and glorious and unfathomable, and strict 100% devotion to him and you will never have a relationship with him beyond that of a slave.
I can't love that. Even if it was the truth. Even if it meant my eternal damnation, it is quite impossible for me to feel any love for what they describe.

Instead our Lord first showed that He loved us, enough to lower Himself to our level and take the punishment for our sin upon Himself. Because He loved His creation and actually cared about it, because He could display compassion and love, that is why I can love Him in return.

So, God having the grace to lower Himself to relate to us.. that's of paramount importance. It makes our relationship more than just ego stroking, and far from stroking our own ego or exalting ourselves, it is humbling because we don't deserve it.

So would I be on my face? Yeah
but not because of power or glory.
But because of what He did for me.
Because He lowered Himself down to our level so that we can know Him.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

well I meant the whole continuous liturgical worship idea. That's what I meant by angel purpose, because that is their purpose, at least those particular Cherubim.

as for partaking in divinity.. are you talking becoming little g gods? Okay. sure.
but big G Gods? there's only 1 Godhead.
I've never really wanted to delve into the Eastern Orthodox idea of apotheosis.
it goes a little far for me a little too close to "be your own God" which is what the serpent has always been saying.

Apotheosis is becoming what God is in His essence which is a heresy. One way to phrase it is that God gave us the ability to become what He is in His grace, i.e. partakers of the divine nature.

The most obvious examples from Scripture that come to mind
Moses after Mt. Sinai in Exodus - "And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him."

Hebrews 12
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

The Transfiguration is the ultimate sign of theosis.

BTW, Happy New Year!

 

[Jamdoc]

Apotheosis is becoming what God is in His essence which is a heresy. One way to phrase it is that God gave us the ability to become what He is in His grace, i.e. partakers of the divine nature.

The most obvious examples from Scripture that come to mind
Moses after Mt. Sinai in Exodus - "And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him."

Hebrews 12
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

The Transfiguration is the ultimate sign of theosis.

BTW, Happy New Year!

Oh, well, I dunno why people care so much about glowing.

 

[pdudgeon]

Oh, well, I dunno why people care so much about glowing.

It is very distinctive.

 

[The Liturgist]

Oh, well, I dunno why people care so much about glowing.

The Radium Girls probably cared too much about it (it wasn’t their fault; the company lied to them and tried to cover up the existence of radiation poisoning).

 

[Jamdoc]

The Radium Girls probably cared too much about it (it wasn’t their fault; the company lied to them and tried to cover up the existence of radiation poisoning).

I mean I've just seen it in videos and pastors talking about it and they're like "OH WOW! WILL OUR RESURRECTION BODIES GLOW!?!?" and I'm just thinking... is that really that exciting? Seems vain.

 

[The Liturgist]

@MarkRohfrietsch

This Ukrainian Catholic church on YouTube is saying a Rosary with a version of the Hail Mary like the pre-Tridentine form you described, and also very agreeable Christological prayers, which I suppose leaves the Russian Orthodox form of the Ave Maria as something of an anomaly.

 

[The Liturgist]

I mean I've just seen it in videos and pastors talking about it and they're like "OH WOW! WILL OUR RESURRECTION BODIES GLOW!?!?" and I'm just thinking... is that really that exciting? Seems vain.

I’ve never heard someone preach about that, although I have heard homilies on the Uncreated Light of Tabor from Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in the context of the Transfiguration of our Lord, which is celebrated on the traditional date of August 6th (the last Sunday before Lent is Forgiveness Sunday), and in the context of Hesychasm, Moses and certain venerated monastics. I have heard a lot of errors in the context of our Resurrected Form, for example, I seem to rememnooRev. Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapel, made a substantial error when he said we would be raised with “spiritual bodies,” a statement which appears to deny the ancient doctrine of a physical resurrection.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

@MarkRohfrietsch

This Ukrainian Catholic church on YouTube is saying a Rosary with a version of the Hail Mary like the pre-Tridentine form you described, and also very agreeable Christological prayers, which I suppose leaves the Russian Orthodox form of the Ave Maria as something of an anomaly.

Very nice!

 

[Paidiske]

for example, I seem to rememnooRev. Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapel, made a substantial error when he said we would be raised with “spiritual bodies,” a statement which appears to deny the ancient doctrine of a physical resurrection.

Was he perhaps referring to 1 Corinthians 15:44?

 

[Jamdoc]

I’ve never heard someone preach about that, although I have heard homilies on the Uncreated Light of Tabor from Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in the context of the Transfiguration of our Lord, which is celebrated on the traditional date of August 6th (the last Sunday before Lent is Forgiveness Sunday), and in the context of Hesychasm, Moses and certain venerated monastics. I have heard a lot of errors in the context of our Resurrected Form, for example, I seem to rememnooRev. Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapel, made a substantial error when he said we would be raised with “spiritual bodies,” a statement which appears to deny the ancient doctrine of a physical resurrection.

Yeah.... I've seen that error spill out of a lot of denominations and people. People who kind of are clinging to a platonic world view that physical = bad spirit = good. I mean Paul was infiltrated by some of this think too when he wrote his epistles.
But I think at his core he understood that THIS flesh was fallen and corrupt but in resurrection we'll have non corrupted flesh. Some people decry carnality but I see carnality as a part of our eternity. It will just be a carnality that is the way God intended us to be.
Some people want to escape being in a body. Me? I want a body. Why?
Because God wants us to have a body.

 

[Philip_B]

Yeah.... I've seen that error spill out of a lot of denominations and people. People who kind of are clinging to a platonic world view that physical = bad spirit = good. I mean Paul was infiltrated by some of this think too when he wrote his epistles.
But I think at his core he understood that THIS flesh was fallen and corrupt but in resurrection we'll have non corrupted flesh. Some people decry carnality but I see carnality as a part of our eternity. It will just be a carnality that is the way God intended us to be.
Some people want to escape being in a body. Me? I want a body. Why?
Because God wants us to have a body.

I believe it is called dualism and is heresy.

 

[jamiec]

I’ve never heard someone preach about that, although I have heard homilies on the Uncreated Light of Tabor from Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, in the context of the Transfiguration of our Lord, which is celebrated on the traditional date of August 6th (the last Sunday before Lent is Forgiveness Sunday), and in the context of Hesychasm, Moses and certain venerated monastics. I have heard a lot of errors in the context of our Resurrected Form, for example, I seem to rememnooRev. Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapel, made a substantial error when he said we would be raised with “spiritual bodies,” a statement which appears to deny the ancient doctrine of a physical resurrection.

STM that Chuck Smith is correct, if he means a "spiritualised" human body. St Paul says the Resurrection body "is raised a spiritual body" - & he cannot be accused of denying either the Resurrection of Christ, or of His members.

The point I think is, that the Holy Spirit will transform our lowly, perishable, corruptible, mortal, earthly bodies, and will transfigure them into the likeness of the Glorious Resurrection Body of Christ, so that they will become glorious, imperishable, immortal, heavenly - no longer "sarkic", not even "psychic", but "pneumic": they will remain created & human, as they are now; but they will be entirely "in-Godded", "in-Christed", "in-Spirited".

What Smith is denying, by the sound of it, is that what is to be raised in the glory of Christ's Resurrection is the familiar, damaged, unhealed, unrenewed, untransfigured, sin-enchained, material body that can be studied by anatomists & such. Those things are not essential characteristics of the human body - the human body as it is meant to be, is the "pneumic", grace-transformed, super-naturalised, God-indwelt, Christ-conformed, Pneuma-renewed human body. Not the body of Adam unfallen, not the body of Adam fallen, not the body of Christ's Church on the path of salvation on Earth not fully renewed; but the Reigning, Ascended, Glorified, Risen Christ the God-man.

The Saints on Earth are those in whom this transfiguration/indwelling/renewal is most fully realised - but it can be a reality in them, only because this transfiguration/indwelling/renewal is the vocation of the whole Church on Earth, so that the whole world may be "infected" with this transfiguration/indwelling/renewal. The salvation of God is not for the Church to bask in selfishly, and everyone else can go to the devil - it is for all mankind, for the whole of creation.

The Resurrection of Christ is far more than "a conjuring-trick with bones" - it is the beginning of the renewal of the universe. The freedom of the Resurrected Christ from the constraints of space-time, as seen in His disappearance at Emmaus, His passing through the locked doors of the Upper Room, & His Ascension to the Father, as well as the miracles He did through the Apostles, are all evidences of the coming of this renewal of creation. The relaxed relation between many Saints OTOH, and the constraints of space-time OTO, looks like further evidence of this renewal.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe it is called dualism and is heresy.

Right God designed us to be both body and spirit, to be just a spirit would be incomplete.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Here we have incomplete people, just their souls, and they don't seem to happy, they're impatient and complaining, crying out for vengeance.
It's an unnatural state of being that God doesn't want for us or intend for us.

 

[The Liturgist]

Was he perhaps referring to 1 Corinthians 15:44?

He said more than that, and got accused of heresy, specifically docetism, by some blogs, because he also said something to the extent that Christ had risen with a spiritual body, which partially would be the case if he interpreted 1 Cor 15:44 as referring as being a non-material body, as opposed to a glorified physical body with what one might call spiritual characteristics, like the abilities to appear in different places and pass through immovable objects we see in the Gospel according to Luke. However, full docetism would require a denial of the physicality of the Incarnation and of the passion on the cross. It is possible, although I personally doubt it, that the fragmentary Gospel According to Peter, was docetic,

For me, it struck me as at most a misunderstanding based on 1 Corinthians 15:44, and the error Smith made was not one of doctrine but of phraseology.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe it is called dualism and is heresy.

Its related to dualism, but Zoroastrianism does not believe matter is evil, but is dualistic, or at least used to be, in that in Zoroastrianism there is a war between the good god Ahura Mazda, which the Japanese car manufacturer claims their cars are named after (surely giving an unanticipated meaning to the line from the Zoroastrian Creed “I declare myself a Mazda worshipper”) and the evil god Angra Mainyu. Zurvanism was a movement within Zoroastrianism popular in the Sassanian Empire, but later decried as heresy by the Zoroastrian mobeds, or magi, which is that Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu were the children of a neutral god of time.