Catholic Mass from a Protestant Convert's Point of View

[steve_bakr]

Then there are some like myself who do know the teaching of the Catholic Church and wholeheartedly reject it.

You may know the teachings of the Catholic Church, but you don't know them to be true. If you knew them to be true, you would be called to come home.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You may know the teachings of the Catholic Church, but you don't know them to be true. If you knew them to be true, you would be called to come home.

If I knew them to be true I would be home and nobody would need to call me. As it is, those teachings which I know to be true both cause me to be at home in my church and to reject those which contradict them.

 

[Albion]

If I knew them to be true I would be home and nobody would need to call me. As it is, those teachings which I know to be true both cause me to be at home in my church and to reject those which contradict them.

Seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

On second thought, however, it may point to another fact of Catholic life--the idea that no one can possibly find fault with any Catholic teachings unless it's because he doesn't understand them.

That is why so many recent converts (not steve) are here constantly quoting the Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. even though no one asked a question.

 

[AHJE]

Seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

On second thought, however, it may point to another fact of Catholic life--the idea that no one can possibly find fault with any Catholic teachings unless it's because he doesn't understand them.

That is why so many recent converts (not steve) are here constantly quoting the Catechism, Papal Encyclicals, etc. even though no one asked a question.

Isn't that why you quote Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible), ONE of the modes of transmitting the Word of God?

Why wouldn't we quote an infallible source of Public Divine Revelation ... ? If we do not, then who will?

The Holy Apostle said, how can they believe unless they hear? And how can they hear unless it is Proclaimed/Preached?

Those who are OF the Truth, will hear Jesus' Voice. To Him be the Glory!

 

[Albion]

Isn't that why you quote Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible), ONE of the modes of transmitting the Word of God?

No. In almost 30,000 posts here on CF I have never once posted a long passage out of the blue--when no one had asked about its contents or anything to do with it--just because I thought some readers could stand to be informed. Similarly, I have never once made a thread or post in order to explain why my own church believes as it does--unless someone else has directly asked about it or taken it upon himself to evaluate the church.

 

[AHJE]

No. In almost 30,000 posts here on CF I have never once posted a long passage out of the blue--when no one had asked about its contents or anything to do with it--just because I thought some readers could stand to be informed. Similarly, I have never once made a thread or post in order to explain why my own church believes as it does--unless someone else has directly asked about it or taken it upon himself to evaluate the church.

I also post things which are relevant to the discussion. How does that differ from what you do according to your beliefs about Divine Revelation?

 

[Albion]

I also post things which are relevant to the discussion. How does that differ from what you do according to your beliefs about Divine Revelation?

As I said, I do not post things merely to try to convince readers to convert to my church or because I have some sense of being a victim in interfaith discussions--which Catholics on these forums do all the time. You do indeed post scripture and other material that is in reply to something asked or in order to clarify something, but you and other Catholics often post detailed material that isn't in response to anything but is just to advertise your paricular denomination.

 

[AHJE]

Has anyone seen the video on the OP?

Would anyone like to comment on it?

It is after all the purpose of the thread. Michael Cumbie is interested in the Unity of God's People. He has an ear for both Catholics and Protestants. It is really unfortunate that we argue so much. I acknowledge that passionate discussion is sometimes necessary, but I think that we can focus on the things that we do have in common also.

I thought you might find it very interesting.

 

[steve_bakr]

If I knew them to be true I would be home and nobody would need to call me. As it is, those teachings which I know to be true both cause me to be at home in my church and to reject those which contradict them.

OK, I understand where you're coming from.

 

[St_Worm2]

Has anyone seen the video on the OP?

Would anyone like to comment on it?

It is after all the purpose of the thread. Michael Cumbie is interested in the Unity of God's People. He has an ear for both Catholics and Protestants. It is really unfortunate that we argue so much. I acknowledge that passionate discussion is sometimes necessary, but I think that we can focus on the things that we do have in common also.

I thought you might find it very interesting.

I suspect at least part of the reason for the lack of interest is the fact that the Cumbie video is an hour long. I did listen to part of it, but during those first 18+ minutes, he never began a discussion about the RC Mass, so I gave up.

Cumbie is a likeable enough fellow, charismatic, and fairly knowledgeable. IMHO, he comes off somewhere between a Christian Pastor and a Christian Comedian.

As to the presentation itself, he starts off very well and appears to have in mind the "Unity of God's People" as you said above (and as he makes clear in the video). As I continued to listen however, he began to either gloss over or mildly mock many of the Biblical truths that we hold dear as Protestants. Granted, he was "preaching to the choir" as I believe his audience to be 100% Roman Catholic, but if he wants to reach even semi-knowledgeable Protestants with a message of unity, I don't believe he will have much success if he continues in this manner.

Though it was easy enough to follow and understand (for the most part), some of his monologue began to seem pointless/lack direction, which led to his presentation becoming wordy and somewhat boring (perhaps that will change once he starts to talk about the Mass?). Quite frankly, the video quickly starts sounding like the same old song, "Come Let Us Embrace Each Other In Unity ... Just Make Sure You Check The Truth At The Door". Unity at the expense of the Truth is never going to fly (as I'm sure you'd agree).

If I listen to more of it, I'll let you know.

--David
p.s. - I have a few comments I'd like to make about your last post to me, so I'll get to that next.

 

[St_Worm2]

Has anyone seen the video on the OP? Would anyone like to comment on it? It is after all the purpose of the thread.

One last thing, if the OP had simply said, "Michael Cumbie converted to the Catholic Church" instead of, "Michael Cumbie converted to the Universal Church which Jesus Founded and Sent into the world", you would have avoided breaking the CF flaming rules and the responses/posts you've gotten so far could have been avoided.

Considering many of your former posts however, I suspect the controversy that erupted over this is what you had in mind from the get-go. But I admit, that's just conjecture on my part.

--David

 

[steve_bakr]

I think the Catholic Church needs to do more ecumenical outreach to Protestants, IMHO.

The current path for unity with the Catholic Church--the path to Holy Communion--is not simply to share our views about Christ's Presence--but to share all of our views. More than that, to actually become a Roman Catholic.

So, I think we need to be more up front about that, rather than explaining it by inches. Most Protestants know that already, so it makes us look disingenuous and condescending when we try to lead them along slowly.

I've heard some Protestants complain that the Catholic Church does not recognize Protestant Churches as such, and that is a sore spot. Perhaps the Church can take that step at some point, but that may require some creative Catholic theology--viz. the one true Church.

I do have a minor observation, though, about some of the Protestants that make such complaints--that is, I'm not seeing that they actually want to have a relationship with the Catholic Church. So, maybe some work can be done on both sides.

 

[Albion]

I do have a minor observation, though, about some of the Protestants that make such complaints--that is, I'm not seeing that they actually want to have a relationship with the Catholic Church. So, maybe some work can be done on both sides.

Surely you understand that so long as the RCC makes such closeness impossible, there's not going to be much thought given by Protestants to the idea of that gap being bridged.

I am absolutely certain, however, that, if the Vatican ever were to change its attitude, half at least of Protestantism would be receptive. After all, our theology as always is to consider all of us Christians to be part of the same church right now, so the transition would not be all remarkable.

 

[AHJE]

One last thing, if the OP had simply said, "Michael Cumbie converted to the Catholic Church" instead of, "Michael Cumbie converted to the Universal Church which Jesus Founded and Sent into the world", you would have avoided breaking the CF flaming rules and the responses/posts you've gotten so far could have been avoided.

Considering many of your former posts however, I suspect the controversy that erupted over this is what you had in mind from the get-go. But I admit, that's just conjecture on my part.

--David

Yes, ... conjecture. It is right that I rejoice at what God has done for Michael Cumbie. I express the Church under names that mean something rather than what people are so used to hearing ... "Catholic" ... I imagine that when people hear this ... they think this ... and they think that ... I rather use meaningful words to describe things in their essence. Catholic is fine. But what does that mean to someone who does not know its etymology?

This is why I often refer to the "Bible" as Sacred Writing, for that is WHAT it IS. It is the Word of God via Sacred Writing.

The only flame I'm interested in is the flame of the Holy Spirit which kindles our hearts to love Jesus and one another.

Peace be with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, ... conjecture. It is right that I rejoice at what God has done for Michael Cumbie. I express the Church under names that mean something rather than what people are so used to hearing ... "Catholic" ... I imagine that when people hear this ... they think this ... and they think that ... I rather use meaningful words to describe things in their essence. Catholic is fine. But what does that mean to someone who does not know its etymology?

This is why I often refer to the "Bible" as Sacred Writing, for that is WHAT it IS. It is the Word of God via Sacred Writing.

The only flame I'm interested in is the flame of the Holy Spirit which kindles our hearts to love Jesus and one another.

Peace be with you.

I like your usage of Sacred Writing. As you are probably ware, there are some Catholic members here who have taken to referring to the Word of God as being solely and only Jesus Christ, However, the Word of God is both Jesus Christ and the Sacred Writing commonly called the Bible.

 

[steve_bakr]

Surely you understand that so long as the RCC makes such closeness impossible, there's not going to be much thought given by Protestants to the idea of that gap being bridged.

I am absolutely certain, however, that, if the Vatican ever were to change its attitude, half at least of Protestantism would be receptive. After all, our theology as always is to consider all of us Christians to be part of the same church right now, so the transition would not be all remarkable.

As I have said, I believe that the Church does need to make progress in the area of interfaith relations. I think that Vatican II opened the door a bit, but it needs to be pushed open.

Our "Year of Faith" is not about that, unfortunately. It is about bringing Catholics more in line with the teachings of the Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As I have said, I believe that the Church does need to make progress in the area of interfaith relations. I think that Vatican II opened the door a bit, but it needs to be pushed open.

Our "Year of Faith" is not about that, unfortunately. It is about bringing Catholics more in line with the teachings of the Church.

Quite true. The extreme hemorrhaging of members that has taken place in the Catholic Church in the United States is nearing catastrophic proportions. However, the proportional loss of members of Catholic relgiious orders, especially priests, is even greater.

 

[steve_bakr]

Quite true. The extreme hemorrhaging of members that has taken place in the Catholic Church in the United States is nearing catastrophic proportions. However, the proportional loss of members of Catholic relgiious orders, especially priests, is even greater.

We have serious problems in those areas. But in the US it is mainly Hispanic immigrants that help mitigate the losses in membership.

Our parish, though small, is in pretty good shape. We have a lot of young people being confirmed. Our priest is from Mexico.

In general, more Catholics seem to go over to Protestantism than vice versa, and a lot of priests are being sent over from other countries.

Becoming a member of the Catholic Church requires more time and effort than joining a Protestant Church, and is meant to be a lifetime commitment.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We have serious problems in those areas. But in the US it is mainly Hispanic immigrants that help mitigate the losses in membership.

Our parish, though small, is in pretty good shape. We have a lot of young people being confirmed. Our priest is from Mexico.

In general, more Catholics seem to go over to Protestantism than vice versa, and a lot of priests are being sent over from other countries.

Becoming a member of the Catholic Church requires more time and effort than joining a Protestant Church, and is meant to be a lifetime commitment.

Thank you for your frank post. The great difficulty with Hispanic Catholics is their very tenuous understanding of the faith. The result has been large losses of members in South and Central America. Most Mexican Catholics I know rarely attend mass and usually only do so for baptisms, marriages, funerals, or if they face a major life crisis.

Becoming a member of the Catholic Church for those born outside of that Church does require much time and effort. For those born into Catholic families, it is about the same as for those who join Protestant churches, having been born into Protestant families. In either case, church membership is intended to be a lifetime commitment.