Catholic Mass from a Protestant Convert's Point of View

[AHJE]

This is Michael Cumbie, who used to be a Southern Baptist (and a Pentecostal Clergyman) and Converted to the Universal Church which Jesus Founded and Sent into the world. Here he gives his point of view as a convert from Protestantism of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, ... I invite you to view and listen:

Catholic Mass | Video Explanations of the Catholic Mass

Please share your thoughts and comments or any questions that you may have.

God bless you.

A. H. J. E.
After the Heart of Jesus Evangelist

 

[St_Worm2]

This is Michael Cumbie, who used to be a Southern Baptist (and a Pentecostal Clergyman) and Converted to the Universal Church which Jesus Founded and Sent into the world.

I haven't watched the video, but I do have a question concerning your terminology. You said that Mr. Cumbie was Southern Baptist and also Pentecostal, but that he left those churches to join the "Universal Church which Jesus founded".

It's my understanding that to be a true Christian (IOW, one who is known & declared by God as such) is to be part of the "universal church". When you say that Mr. Cumbie left the Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches to join the "Universal Church", what is your full meaning?

Thanks!

 

[wordsoflife]

what is your full meaning?

When he says "Universal Church" he obviously means the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[St_Worm2]

When he says "Universal Church" he obviously means the Roman Catholic Church.

Well, yes, but considering one of the rules that CF has in place about flaming (see below), I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation.

● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
​

--David

 

[AHJE]

I haven't watched the video, but I do have a question concerning your terminology. You said that Mr. Cumbie was Southern Baptist and also Pentecostal, but that he left those churches to join the "Universal Church which Jesus founded".

It's my understanding that to be a true Christian (IOW, one who is known & declared by God as such) is to be part of the "universal church". When you say that Mr. Cumbie left the Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches to join the "Universal Church", what is your full meaning?

Thanks!

Universal is another way to say "Catholic" which really comes from the greek "Katholikos". It means essentially "Universal" or "in keeping with the WHOLE". It is Non-Sectarian.

This name "Catholic" was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch to refer to the Church founded and sent by Christ into the world, ... to all nations.
St. Ignatius was actually a disciple of St. John the Beloved Apostle.

Does that answer your question?

 

[St_Worm2]

Universal is another way to say "Catholic" which really comes from the greek "Katholikos". It means essentially "Universal" or "in keeping with the WHOLE". It is Non-Sectarian.

This name "Catholic" was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch to refer to the Church founded and sent by Christ into the world, ... to all nations.
St. Ignatius was actually a disciple of St. John the Beloved Apostle.

Does that answer your question?

I am aware of the meaning of "catholic", but you describe the church that Mr. Cumbie joined in more explicit terms.

1) Universal
2) Founded by Jesus
3) Sent by Jesus
​

This describes well the one true church (there is no other). Are you saying that Mr. Cumbie was not part of this church when he was a Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal, that he was not a Christian, or that Southern Baptists and Pentecostals should not consider themselves to be Christians?

--David

 

[AHJE]

I am aware of the meaning of "catholic", but you describe the church that Mr. Cumbie joined in more explicit terms.

1) Universal
2) Founded by Jesus
3) Sent by Jesus
​

This describes well the one true church (there is no other). Are you saying that Mr. Cumbie was not part of this church when he was a Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal, that he was not a Christian, or that Southern Baptists and Pentecostals should not consider themselves to be Christians?

--David

Why don't you watch the video and see what Michael Cumbie says himself concerning some of these things?

If you know what the word "Catholic" means then why are you asking a Catholic why he choses to call the Church of Jesus Christ "Catholic"?

Yes, I do believe that the Catholic Church is that same Church that Jesus Founded and Sent into the world.

And I also believe what Sacred Writing says, that Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this Fold." Jesus only spoke of one Sheepfold in St. John 10. The Church is One. If I said anything otherwise I would be a liar.

God bless you.

 

[St_Worm2]

Why don't you watch the video and see what Michael Cumbie says himself concerning some of these things?

If you know what the word "Catholic" means then why are you asking a Catholic why he choses to call the Church of Jesus Christ "Catholic"?

Yes, I do believe that the Catholic Church is that same Church that Jesus Founded and Sent into the world.

And I also believe what Sacred Writing says, that Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this Fold." Jesus only spoke of one Sheepfold in St. John 10. The Church is One. If I said anything otherwise I would be a liar.

God bless you.

John 10:16a, refers back to v1-5, where the "fold" to which the Lord has come is that of Israel.

"Other sheep" We also learn that the Lord has sheep in folds other than Israel's.

John 16c, "they will become one flock with one shepherd" (not one "fold", as per Jerome). Many folds there may be, but the Lord tells us we are to be gathered together as one flock under one Shepherd (the Lord Jesus Christ Himself). The church will, in fact, be forever defined by this unity of Jewish and Gentile believers, different folds or sheep pens, but the sheep all belonging to the same Shepherd.

As for the rest, you certainly do a excellent job of referring to my questions w/o actually answering them. Sadly, I'm not any closer to understanding what you believe than I was before.

--David

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also,
and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd"
John 10:16​

 

[AHJE]

The Sheepfold refers to the whole Church founded and sent by Jesus Christ, it is the People of God which is a visible and hierarchical Society. Those sheep who are not of this fold, according to Jesus, hear His Voice, which means that they allow themselves to be led.

Where is Jesus, the Good Shepherd, leading them? He is leading them to the One Sheepfold ... unto Eternal Life.

This is what St. John 10 says.

Praised be Jesus Christ.

 

[wordsoflife]

Are you saying that Mr. Cumbie was not part of this church when he was a Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal, that he was not a Christian, or that Southern Baptists and Pentecostals should not consider themselves to be Christians?

Since Catholics consider their Church to be the one true Church that Jesus established this is in effect what he is saying.

 

[Trogool]

Thread derailment is awesome.

 

[wordsoflife]

Thread derailment is awesome.

What derailment?

 

[AHJE]

Since Catholics consider their Church to be the one true Church that Jesus established this is in effect what he is saying.

Yes, ... Catholics believe that this is the one true Church but it is not exactly what I was saying. Maybe you should read what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Non-Catholic Christians.

Please read #838, 845-848 ... click here: Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

God bless you.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Sheepfold refers to the whole Church founded and sent by Jesus Christ, it is the People of God which is a visible and hierarchical Society. Those sheep who are not of this fold, according to Jesus, hear His Voice, which means that they allow themselves to be led.

Where is Jesus, the Good Shepherd, leading them? He is leading them to the One Sheepfold ... unto Eternal Life.

This is what St. John 10 says.

Praised be Jesus Christ.

Most of this, not unlike the incorrect translation of ποίμνη you use for your CF Custom User Title ("there shall be one fold and one shepherd."), is simply wrong. Here is an excerpt from the Jerome Biblical Commentary concerning this verse:

(John 16:10a) I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold: The Gentiles, too, must be brought into salvation together with the sheep of the fold of Israel (cf. Mt 15:24; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:11-22).

(John 16:10c) The Vulgate has "one fold, one shepherd," but the Greek clearly means "flock." Jerome Biblical Commentary on John 10:16
​

The RCC's original claim of exclusiveness is based upon the Vulgate's mis-translation of ποίμνη from John 10:16c, a fact that the RCC now admits to (well, to the mis-translation anyway). Sadly, this misses what is perhaps the main point of v16, that the church is for everyone who believes and not just for those who already are, or those who decide to convert to, (in this case) the Jewish faith and traditions. Jesus tells us here His church (His "flock") will be inclusive, not exclusive.

"...visible and hierarchical Society" - you got this from John 16:10?

Finally, "One Sheepfold" Is this a direct reference to the RCC?

Thanks!

--David

"I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead,
and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd"
John 10:16 NAB ​

 

[AHJE]

Most of this, not unlike the incorrect translation of ποίμνη you use for your CF Custom User Title ("there shall be one fold and one shepherd."), is simply wrong. Here is an excerpt from the Jerome Biblical Commentary concerning this verse:

(John 16:10a) I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold: The Gentiles, too, must be brought into salvation together with the sheep of the fold of Israel (cf. Mt 15:24; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:11-22).

(John 16:10c) The Vulgate has "one fold, one shepherd," but the Greek clearly means "flock." Jerome Biblical Commentary on John 10:16
​

The RCC's original claim of exclusiveness is based upon the Vulgate's mis-translation of ποίμνη from John 10:16c, a fact that the RCC now admits to (well, to the mis-translation anyway). Sadly, this misses what is perhaps the main point of v16, that the church is for everyone who believes and not just for those who already are, or those who decide to convert to, (in this case) the Jewish faith and traditions. Jesus tells us here His church (His "flock") will be inclusive, not exclusive.

"...visible and hierarchical Society" - you got this from John 16:10?

Finally, "One Sheepfold" Is this a direct reference to the RCC?

Thanks!

--David

"I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead,
and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd"
John 10:16 NAB ​

The Church is the New Israel. Jesus Universalized Israel.

Visible and Hierarchical, does it not say in Jeremiah 3:15 that God would give us shepherds (Pastors) after His own Heart?

No matter how you desire to put it, "Fold" or "Flock" ... there is still ONE Church, outside of which no man may be saved. It is the duty of every Christian to sincerely seek that Church out as if his salvation depended upon it. Why? Because the Church is, as the Bible says, the Body of Christ.
There is no salvation apart from the Body of Christ. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man goes to the Father except through Him.

And all who try to climb into the sheepfold by another way other than the means laid down by Christ, Jesus calls a thief and a robber. Read St. John 10. The thief and the robber, btw, is the one who is not sent, false teachers without ecclesiastical authority.


Clearly, you and I disagree as to what "Church" means.

Now, do you care to comment on the OP? ... If not, let's just discontinue this.

You have not once tried to speak of the major contents of the OP.

God bless you.

 

[steve_bakr]

It probably should be made clear that the Catholic Church acknowledges that those people in Protestant Churches who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are true Christians.

 

[AHJE]

^ I tried to inform them as to what the Catechism says in post 13. Its up to them to search it out.

 

[AHJE]

It probably should be made clear that the Catholic Church acknowledges that those people in Protestant Churches who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are true Christians.

That is, if through no fault of their own they do not know the full Gospel delivered through the Catholic Church, right?

 

[bbbbbbb]

That is, if through no fault of their own they do not know the full Gospel delivered through the Catholic Church, right?

Then there are some like myself who do know the teaching of the Catholic Church and wholeheartedly reject it.

 

[steve_bakr]

That is, if through no fault of their own they do not know the full Gospel delivered through the Catholic Church, right?

If they know and believe the Catholic Church to be true, then they are called to conversion.