Catholic: Intercession

[ZealouS]

Hello, I've been studying Catholicism lately and was just wondering if some Catholics here could explain the official Catholic teaching on the topic of "Intercession of the Saints". As I understand it, Catholics "pray" to dead Saints to intercede on their behalf because they believe these deceased men and women of God have God's "ear", so to speak.

I already understand that Christians are encouraged to intercede for all people (1 Tim. 2:1-2) in the NT, and can see the benefit thereof, especially in the spiritual lives of those who are petitioning, praying, interceding for others; practicing all of these make us less selfish and more loving, which ends up making us better Christians. Or one could say we demonstrate our true Christianity by doing all these things for all people, the love of God for them spilling out of us in form petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving, but I digress.

What I fail to understand is why "prayer" to dead Saints is necessary in Catholicism, especially when it is clear from Scripture that God Himself, through both Christ (1 Tim. 2:5) and the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26), mediates/intercedes on the behalf of believers. I believe that man can add nothing to the work of God, and so, any additional intercession, would be, from my current perspective, redundant.

Anyways, what are your thoughts? And please, no links to articles, book recommendations, etc. I want to discuss this topic.

 

[ChristianT]

Greetings, ZealouS!

Here's the Eastern Orthodox perspective - so as the saying goes, "we are...catholic, but not Roman..." - However our perspective is similar to that of Catholics, so I believe this will be helpful.

Intercession of the saints makes sense in a Christian worldview where saints who "die" are not really dead, but are in heaven with God, and are as alive as any other Christian, realistically. Thus, asking intercession from and to the saints are the same as asking your friend to pray for you, or the best metaphor I can think of is, asking some person on CF (i.e. http://www.christianforums.com/f10/) to pray for you, only the person you're asking is ... well post-mortem but fully alive in Christ. Thus, even though we can pray directly to God, we also have a "great cloud of witnesses" who intercede on our behalf.

 

[ZealouS]

Greetings, ZealouS!

Here's the Eastern Orthodox perspective - so as the saying goes, "we are...catholic, but not Roman..." - However our perspective is similar to that of Catholics, so I believe this will be helpful.

Thanks for your response, ChristianT. It is appreciated.

Intercession of the saints makes sense in a Christian worldview where saints who "die" are not really dead, but are in heaven with God, and are as alive as any other Christian, realistically. Thus, asking intercession from and to the saints are the same as asking your friend to pray for you, or the best metaphor I can think of is, asking some person on CF (i.e. http://www.christianforums.com/f10/) to pray for you, only the person you're asking is ... well post-mortem but fully alive in Christ. Thus, even though we can pray directly to God, we also have a "great cloud of witnesses" who intercede on our behalf.

I see. Is Hebrews 12:1 the only verse that supports the concept of this cloud of witnesses you speak of? The reason I ask is because it does mention that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, referring to the Saints, but it it in no way directs us to seek their intercession. Is there any other place in Scripture that you feel supports this teaching?

And again, in light of the verses I posted, which you didn't respond to, I don't see why it's necessary to specifically pray for them to intercede on our behalf; if God himself is our mediator and intercessor, what could men, even heavenly men, add? Consider the following verses:

Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And further on in the same chapter:

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?

 

[Tigger45]

Thanks for your response, ChristianT. It is appreciated.

I see. Is Hebrews 12:1 the only verse that supports the concept of this cloud of witnesses you speak of? The reason I ask is because it does mention that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, referring to the Saints, but it it in no way directs us to seek their intercession. Is there any other place in Scripture that you feel supports this teaching?

And again, in light of the verses I posted, which you didn't respond to, I don't see why it's necessary to specifically pray for them to intercede on our behalf; if God himself is our mediator and intercessor, what could men, even heavenly men, add? Consider the following verses:

Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And further on in the same chapter:

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?

I am not RC or EO but the verses you listed doesn't say we are not to pray for one another. In fact...
James 5:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The position of the RC and EO is what's the difference between asking or having a Christian brother or sister pray for you weather they are still here on earth or already ascended to heavenly realms?

 

[kellhus]

Hello, I've been studying Catholicism lately and was just wondering if some Catholics here could explain the official Catholic teaching on the topic of "Intercession of the Saints". As I understand it, Catholics "pray" to dead Saints to intercede on their behalf because they believe these deceased men and women of God have God's "ear", so to speak. I already understand that Christians are encouraged to intercede for all people (1 Tim. 2:1-2) in the NT, and can see the benefit thereof, especially in the spiritual lives of those who are petitioning, praying, interceding for others; practicing all of these make us less selfish and more loving, which ends up making us better Christians. Or one could say we demonstrate our true Christianity by doing all these things for all people, the love of God for them spilling out of us in form petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving, but I digress. What I fail to understand is why "prayer" to dead Saints is necessary in Catholicism, especially when it is clear from Scripture that God Himself, through both Christ (1 Tim. 2:5) and the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26), mediates/intercedes on the behalf of believers. I believe that man can add nothing to the work of God, and so, any additional intercession, would be, from my current perspective, redundant. Anyways, what are your thoughts? And please, no links to articles, book recommendations, etc. I want to discuss this topic.

It isn't necessary in Catholicism.

 

[ChristianT]

Thanks for your response, ChristianT. It is appreciated.

I see. Is Hebrews 12:1 the only verse that supports the concept of this cloud of witnesses you speak of? The reason I ask is because it does mention that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, referring to the Saints, but it it in no way directs us to seek their intercession. Is there any other place in Scripture that you feel supports this teaching?

I believe that's the only one. as others have said, the EO and RC believe that asking others to pray for us includes saints who aren't on earth as well as those who are.

And again, in light of the verses I posted, which you didn't respond to, I don't see why it's necessary to specifically pray for them to intercede on our behalf; if God himself is our mediator and intercessor, what could men, even heavenly men, add? Consider the following verses:

As per your verses and your reflections, I agree. No one can add to what the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf. And no one can add to the work of God. But that's not what intercession is for, nor is it necessarily "required" or "necessary." It's very similar to fasting and prayer in general, in that it isn't required for anyone to do for salvation, theosis, or justification (depending on your vocabulary), however like you acknowledged, it's beneficial to us and helps us experience the full Christian life and faith.

Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And further on in the same chapter:

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?

 

[ZealouS]

I am not RC or EO but the verses you listed doesn't say we are not to pray for one another. In fact...
James 5:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The position of the RC and EO is what's the difference between asking or having a Christian brother or sister pray for you weather they are still here on earth or already ascended to heavenly realms?

Hey Tigg, thanks for your response. I said nothing about whether the verses are supposed to say we should pray for one another or not. And I do believe that these Saints are in heaven with Christ. I'm simply trying to better understand why "Intercession of the Saints" is important to Roman Catholics (and any other Christian who believes in "praying" to Heavenly Saints for intercession), especially in how it pertains to Marian devotion, which, unless I'm mistaken, is quite necessary in Roman Catholicism.

But to perhaps take the thought a step further, would not these Heavenly Saints already being praying for us, since it is obviously God's will for them to do so, making our requests for them to do so superfluous? Not to mention the points I've already made about God himself interceding on our behalf.

An off the top of my head analogy (though quite imperfect, to be sure) would be as follows: I walk into a coffee shop with my brothers and sisters. This isn't just any old coffee shop, but one my family actually owns. My dad is behind the counter, taking drink orders and making them (a very hands on type of guy, to be sure). I'm the last in line, so I ask my brothers and sisters to order my coffee for me. They agree to do so, which I appreciate - very kind. However, my dad, who saw all of us walk in the door, and who also knows how we all like our coffee, has already set to work making the drinks, so that by the time we get to the front of the line, there really isn't much to be said besides a genuine "Thank you". Yes, my siblings could still order for me, and yes I could still order my own, but to do so would be unnecessary.

 

[ZealouS]

It isn't necessary in Catholicism.

Could you please elaborate?

 

[ZealouS]

I believe that's the only one. as others have said, the EO and RC believe that asking others to pray for us includes saints who aren't on earth as well as those who are.

Ok, cool. Thanks.

As per your verses and your reflections, I agree. No one can add to what the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf. And no one can add to the work of God. But that's not what intercession is for, nor is it necessarily "required" or "necessary." It's very similar to fasting and prayer in general, in that it isn't required for anyone to do for salvation, theosis, or justification (depending on your vocabulary), however like you acknowledged, it's beneficial to us and helps us experience the full Christian life and faith.

I see. Are you certain that praying for the intercession of Mary (or other Saints) isn't necessary or required in EO or Roman Catholicism?

 

[ChristianT]

I see. Are you certain that praying for the intercession of Mary (or other Saints) isn't necessary or required in EO or Roman Catholicism?

Yes, I am sure that it isn't "necessary," but I promise you that most EO and RC faithful do pray to the saints, including Mary the Theotokos - mother of God - either in Liturgy / Mass, and/or at home. But if you were to join either Church, I'm sure you'd fit in perfectly fine if you sat out that prayer or never prayed to the saints at home. As a personal testimony, the more you research the Church of your choice (depending on what you study, you may get more evidence for one being "the" Church), the less "controversial" matters such as this, infant baptism, etc. become.

As for controversial matters, I mean in the traditional Protestant/evangelical sense. You would be hard-pressed to find an authentic Southern Baptist for example who could smile at an infant Baptism or pray to a saint.

 

[Rhamiel]

this is a very biblical idea

that the virtue of the righteous can help many people

like with Sodom and Gomorrah, God would have not destroyed those cities if there were 50 righteous men

or when during the Exodus, there are several times the Israelites mess up (the golden calf, some of the elders reject Moses and the earth swallows them up)
it is said that the entire nation of Israel would have been wiped out except for the intersession of Moses

also, Christ died for us when we were still sinners, this is the biggest example

God sometimes gives mercy to the guilty because of the prayers/actions of the righteous

that is what prayers to the saints is about, asking God to have mercy on us, not because of our own merits, but because of the prayers of the holy dead

 

[Athanasias]

Hello, I've been studying Catholicism lately and was just wondering if some Catholics here could explain the official Catholic teaching on the topic of "Intercession of the Saints". As I understand it, Catholics "pray" to dead Saints to intercede on their behalf because they believe these deceased men and women of God have God's "ear", so to speak.

I already understand that Christians are encouraged to intercede for all people (1 Tim. 2:1-2) in the NT, and can see the benefit thereof, especially in the spiritual lives of those who are petitioning, praying, interceding for others; practicing all of these make us less selfish and more loving, which ends up making us better Christians. Or one could say we demonstrate our true Christianity by doing all these things for all people, the love of God for them spilling out of us in form petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving, but I digress.

What I fail to understand is why "prayer" to dead Saints is necessary in Catholicism, especially when it is clear from Scripture that God Himself, through both Christ (1 Tim. 2:5) and the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26), mediates/intercedes on the behalf of believers. I believe that man can add nothing to the work of God, and so, any additional intercession, would be, from my current perspective, redundant.

Anyways, what are your thoughts? And please, no links to articles, book recommendations, etc. I want to discuss this topic.

Sure. It very Jewish indeed. Catholicism historically came out of judaism so one would expect this. When we say pray in regards to a saint we do not mean worship. The word pray here simply means "to ask". So we "ask"(pray to) our saints in heaven to intercede for us and our needs. This is very Jewish and goes back to an ancient jewish practice of praying to the dead tzaddikim or Jewish saints. Here is a Jewish article by a rabbi on it.:

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf? - Questions & Answers

 

[Bill McEnaney]

ChristianT thank you for translating "Theotokos" to "mother of God" because there are different ways to bear someone. I could say Our Lady was a God bearer, even if she weren't Our Lord's mother. We could use that phrase to mean that she held or carried him.