Catholic 'evidence'

[Chrysostomon]

I am not a Catholic. In deciding upon whether to leave Protestantism I had the choice before me of Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Two friends of mine, both Catholic claimed that the Orthodox church was in schism from the Catholic Church. As 'proof' I was given a number of citations from Orthodox Fathers which allegedly support Papal claims (amongst other things). This was seemingly quite impressive, but on closer examination, those quotes that I could actually research for myself; well I found them to be taken out of context (see web-site lists below).

Is it permissible to cite falsifiable evidence? It would seem to me to undermine the case for Catholicism; use of shaky evidence.

Is there better evidence available? (also, instead of making this a 'just-so' statement, I can, if you wish show how I concluded that several quotes have been taken out of context, or not used correctly)


http://www.catholic.com/library/eastern_orthodoxy.asp

http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

This last list itself is linked from a vast number of sites:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/pete.html

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS4.HTM

http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/petertherock.html

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/the_rock.htm

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=239960

http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ206.HTM

AND THIS SITE WHICH HAS THE BANNER "EASTERN ORTHODOXY" and a picture of an Orthodox Church as if it's a site by the Orthodox

http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ23.HTM

 

[marciadietrich]

AND THIS SITE WHICH HAS THE BANNER "EASTERN ORTHODOXY" and a picture of an Orthodox Church as if it's a site by the Orthodox

http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ23.HTM

That website doesn't pretend to be orthodox, it is simply a subpage on Orthodoxy. Go to the main page, which can be seen at www.biblicalcatholic.com and it is clearly a Catholic site with many, many subpages on different topics which will have a seperate title at the top like that.

Marcia

 

[Skripper]

I am not a Catholic. In deciding upon whether to leave Protestantism I had the choice before me of Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Two friends of mine, both Catholic claimed that the Orthodox church was in schism from the Catholic Church. As 'proof' I was given a number of citations from Orthodox Fathers which allegedly support Papal claims (amongst other things). This was seemingly quite impressive, but on closer examination, those quotes that I could actually research for myself; well I found them to be taken out of context (see web-site lists below).

Is it permissible to cite falsifiable evidence? It would seem to me to undermine the case for Catholicism; use of shaky evidence.

Is there better evidence available? (also, instead of making this a 'just-so' statement, I can, if you wish show how I concluded that several quotes have been taken out of context, or not used correctly)


http://www.catholic.com/library/eastern_orthodoxy.asp

http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

This last list itself is linked from a vast number of sites:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/pete.html

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS4.HTM

http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/petertherock.html

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/the_rock.htm

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=239960

http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ206.HTM

This sounds interesting. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this . . .

AND THIS SITE WHICH HAS THE BANNER "EASTERN ORTHODOXY" and a picture of an Orthodox Church as if it's a site by the Orthodox

http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ23.HTM

This suggests that Dave Armstrong, whose site this link is to, is employing some sort of deception in order to lead visitors to believe that this is an Eastern Orthodox site. I can tell you for a fact that this is not true. Dave is a personal friend of mine and lives nearby. The reason for the picture is simply that the link is to a subsection in this very Catholic site. A subsection that discusses Eastern Orthodoxy. Which explains the picture. No deception.

Moreover, if you notice, two additional links you've provided are to the same site by Dave Armstrong. On any of them, including the section on Eastern Orthodoxy, all one need do is scroll to the bottom, click on the link that says "Main Index" and it will take you to the site's home page where it says, in big giant letters, "Biblical Evidence for Catholicism." Here is the link that is at the bottom of all of Dave's pages, (except for the home page itself), which takes you to the home page: http://srv1.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM As you can see, it's not any kind of attempt at portraying the site as EO.

 

[Skripper]

Oooops! Sorry, Marcia. I am an idiot . . . I only read the OP before posting. I see you had already made the same point about Dave Armstrong not portraying his site as Eastern Orthodox.

 

[ps139]

Is it permissible to cite falsifiable evidence? It would seem to me to undermine the case for Catholicism; use of shaky evidence.

Dear friend,

I think that every denomination or group you talk to will have "irrefutable evidence" of their claims, that certain views must be true. When it all comes down to it I do not believe that Our Lord would leave us without a leader. I think the apostles were probably arguing 15 minutes after the Ascension. Peter is such a leader in the Gospels and in Acts, Jesus built his Church on Peter, and established an office that does not cease to exist just because Peter dies. I am sure you have heard counterarguments to this, God knows I have. But I just do not believe Our Lord would leave us leaderless. If anything is going to be organized and effective it needs someone at the top, it is as simple as that. This is just another aspect of Catholicism that makes perfect sense to me, really the main reason I am Catholic is that I cannot imagine that God would do it any differently. I look around elsewhere and see either uncertainty or inability.

I see above that you asked if a Catholic uses falsifiable evidence, does that undermine the case for Catholicism? Follow your heart. If some Catholic makes wild claims, and makes up lies about other denominations, does that have any effect on the truth of Catholic claims? No. It just means you need to find a new source of information. And again, any denomination will say that someone else's positionis "falsifiable." We see people claiming that John 6 is not to be taken literally... which for the life of me I will never understand how someone can take that position. We have others saying that Romans 1 does not refer to homosexuals. And they both will tell us that Catholic arguments for the Real Presence and sexual morality are "falsifiable." So I guess what I am trying to say brother, is to follow your heart and go where God leads you.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

 

[marciadietrich]

Dave, no need to be embarrased. ... I think I posted not long before you and always good to know I wasn't the only one to notice that.

I think Dave Armstrong's site is one of the best for content. I would like to see him get a makeover at least on the opening page, maybe if I get time will give that a try.

Marcia

 

[thereselittleflower]

Chrysostomon

the best evidence for me was in the bible . . when Jesus gave to Peter, and to Peter alone, the keys of the Kingdom . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Maximus]

You face a tough choice. I suggest you read a lot of Church history, a lot of the Fathers, and, of course, pray.

Here is an interesting web site by a Greek Orthodox convert to the Catholic Church (I am not sure the word "convert" is correct when speaking of Orthodox who come into communion with the Bishop of Rome, however).

Anyway, the author of that web site also has written a pretty good book on the subject entitled The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome (by James Likoudis).

Another good one is Stephen Ray's Upon This Rock.

Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, by Butler, Dahlgren, and Hess, is also supposed to be very good, although I haven't yet read that one.

There are also some books written from the Orthodox perspective, like Michael Weldon's Two Paths, and Fr. John Meyendorff's The Primacy of Peter.

The Russian theologian Vladimir Soloviev believed very much in the primacy of the bishops of Rome, yet he considered that this belief made him more Orthodox, not less. His book, The Russian Church and the Papacy, is extremely good for early Church history and a real eye opener.

May God bless, help, and guide you, brother.

 

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

I am not a Catholic. In deciding upon whether to leave Protestantism I had the choice before me of Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

Chrysostomon

Can I just add, that if you are looking into converting from Protestentism, me personal experience is rather valid, having been confirmed as a Catholic only 6 months ago today! I converted from protestentism too.

The Catholic Church is the only church that I found that can trace it's origins, unspolit or tainted somehow by man, back to Jesus, our Lord.
I urge you to research Catholocism thoroughly before choosing.

Like I said, I converted to Catholocism and every day it blows my mind! I have found the Truth...the Whole Truth, praise God!

Here is a nice website to read that quotes, scripturally, the doctrines of Catholocism:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com
(Yeah, I'm very impressed with this site, DT )

My prayers are with you!

Peace in Christ!

 

[Spotty]

Dear friend,

When it all comes down to it I do not believe that Our Lord would leave us without a leader....This is just another aspect of Catholicism that makes perfect sense to me, really the main reason I am Catholic is that I cannot imagine that God would do it any differently. I look around elsewhere and see either uncertainty or inability.

In a nutshell, a large nutshell, I couldn't agree more. This is a simple fact of anything which desires to get its voice heard. A leader is needed. A contemporary authority to voice a voice for contemporary people. A Church which has authority to speak, and Speak Authoritatively. God is not blind to the contradictions that would arise in His Church. Hence, He gives us more than a Book. He gives us a contemporary voice, which by the way, gave us the Book through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TexasCatholic]

I am not a Catholic. In deciding upon whether to leave Protestantism I had the choice before me of Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Two friends of mine, both Catholic claimed that the Orthodox church was in schism from the Catholic Church.

If the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome is your main concern, may I highly recommend this book.... I'm actually still digesting it (it's very indepth) after months of having it. I come from a background of strong Conservative Protestantism.... Southern Baptist... somewhere between Evangelical and Fundamentalist... and after reading this (and a dozen other books), I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the Catholic Church is the original Church established by Christ, and that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the Bishops and the final word in matters of faith and morals. There HAS to be a visible head of the Church, to correct in matters of dispute. If there is no final word, you have the ridiculous situations that we have in our Protestant denominations and churches that are constantly splitting over doctrine and whatever other ridiculous reasons. I know of one of the churches I attended as a kid that split over Masons vs. non-Masons, and without any authority to say what is or isn't morally acceptable... what happened? They split.

Anyway.. I'm rambling, but my point is, as recently as six months ago I was strongly against the Catholic Church. Now, I want to become a part of it, finally, where I belong! There's plenty of good books... This particular one has some great first-hand-church-father sources for their information, upon which you could surely locate the originals and read further if you so desired.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898707234/qid=1105416567/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-4503061-3196904?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

The book is Upon This Rock, by Stephen K. Ray. I think if you make your decision without reading this book, you'll be doing yourself a disservice! If I remember correctly, Stephen K. Ray is a Protestant (Baptist?) convert to Catholicism.... and this book is a result of his research. No need to duplicate efforts completely.

Peace Be with you and welcome! It's an awesome journey!

-Michael

 

[Michelina]

Welcome Home, South Coast!

 

[Carrye]

I knew you rocked, SouthCoast!

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Pending Staff Review