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Catholic Eschatology

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VOW

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To Hoonbaba:

The End Times, aka "Rapture", is a concoction dating from the mid-1800s. Even those who fervently believe we are in the Last Days cannot agree as to the sequence of events.

Be aware that there have been many charismatic leaders who have made predictions of when the Second Coming will occur, and they've all been WRONG.

I personally am not going to worry about it.

Oh, and most Catholics don't have much good to say about the "Left Behind" books, either. The stories are somewhat interesting, but the incredible things which happen to the main characters gets to be a drag, and the writers' rabid anti-Catholicism contaminates the books. It's also recommended you stay FAR, FAR away from the Left Behind Message Board, also known as "The Board Which Shall Not Be Named," or TBWSNBN for short. The resident fire-breathing dragons feast on Catholics and then pick their teeth with Catholic bones.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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onesheep

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Originally posted by VOW
The End Times, aka "Rapture", is a concoction dating from the mid-1800s. Even those who fervently believe we are in the Last Days cannot agree as to the sequence of events.
This is simply not true. The Pseudo-Ephraim Sermon has been dated to some time between 373 AD to 627 AD. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73).

Either way, the Rapture was a belief that was voiced at least 1200 years prior to the date you gave.

Personally I believe Scripture clearly shows the Rapture in both the OT and NT. So that would date it a lot earlier than 373 AD.
 
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Wolseley

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The Catholic Church is amillennial, meaning we take Daniel and Revelation symbolically, for the most part. We believe that we are in the 1,000 years right now---it is symbolic for the age of the Church on earth.

The Rapture and the Lord's return we take as happening simultaneously; and we view the Battle of Armageddon as symbolic for God's final triumph over the devil at the end of time.

For an in-depth explanation of Catholic eschatology, I recommend The Rapture Trap, by Paul Thigpen, Ph.D., put out by Ascension Press, ISBN 0-9659228-2-0.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by VOW
To Hoonbaba:

The End Times, aka "Rapture", is a concoction dating from the mid-1800s. Even those who fervently believe we are in the Last Days cannot agree as to the sequence of events.

Be aware that there have been many charismatic leaders who have made predictions of when the Second Coming will occur, and they've all been WRONG.

I personally am not going to worry about it.

Oh, and most Catholics don't have much good to say about the "Left Behind" books, either. The stories are somewhat interesting, but the incredible things which happen to the main characters gets to be a drag, and the writers' rabid anti-Catholicism contaminates the books. It's also recommended you stay FAR, FAR away from the Left Behind Message Board, also known as "The Board Which Shall Not Be Named," or TBWSNBN for short. The resident fire-breathing dragons feast on Catholics and then pick their teeth with Catholic bones.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hello again VOW,

I'm fully aware of the 'rapture' view. In fact I'm completely against that view. I don't believe in any end of the world (Gen 8:21-22,Ecc 1:4, Ps 78:69, Ps 104:5, Dan 2:44, Luke 1:33, Eph 3:21). Isn't it interesting how the word 'rapture' doesn't show up anywhere in the New Testament? Nor is there any 'antichrist' in the book of Revelation. I don't know why people keep speaking about a one-man ruler/antichrist figure, when 1 John and 2 John gives us clear understanding of 'antichrist'.

My personal view on eschatology is preterism, which states that most NT prophecies, or all NT prophecies(depending on what kind of preterist you are) has been fulfilled. I look at the book of Revelation as depicting the end of Biblical Judaism, where Christianity emerged and was fully distinct from Judaism. You can read some of my posts on the end times forum on this board.

Anyway, I hear that Scott Hahn holds onto a view similar to preterism. I'm thinking about purchasing his tapes on "The End".

So I'm just curious to know exactly what Catholics believe.

-Jason
 
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Avila

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Well, from my conversations about the subject with my DH, I'd say that those thoughts are quite in line with Catholic teaching. All prophecy has been fulfilled, and after the Apostles, there is no new Revelation, either....

Incidentally, Dr. Hahn is really good - no matter what the subject is! :D
 
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isshinwhat

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Matthew 24
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

I'm guessing the main part of this chapter you were referring to was the part about one man being left and one remaining. I've heard this used in defense of a pre-trip rapture, which I understand you do not believe in, but I think it says the exact opposite. Notice this "snatching" is linked to the flood of Noah. In the flood of Noah, the ones left behind weren't the evil ones, they were members of Noah's family, the Holy ones! I believe this is referring to the threshing of the field which Christ spoke about.

What do you think?

Neal
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Matthew 24
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

I'm guessing the main part of this chapter you were referring to was the part about one man being left and one remaining. I've heard this used in defense of a pre-trip rapture, which I understand you do not believe in, but I think it says the exact opposite. Notice this "snatching" is linked to the flood of Noah. In the flood of Noah, the ones left behind weren't the evil ones, they were members of Noah's family, the Holy ones! I believe this is referring to the threshing of the field which Christ spoke about.

What do you think?

Neal

YES!! I agree!! Those who were 'taken' were killed, and those who were 'left behind' were saved by God's grace. Well that's how I look at it =)

By the way I believe Matthew 24:15-16 were fulfilled in the first century at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains (Matt 24:15-16, NKJV)

By the way, here's what Eusebius Pamphilus said concerning this passage:

"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. "

"--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Ch. 5)

Then there's St. Chrysostom:

"For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Clement of Alexandria:

"For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction... These two thousand three hundred days make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

Fascinating isn't it? =)

-Jason
 
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If I may jump in here, I am a fellow preterist. I also see the taking of the one in the field to mean the ones taken into captivity at the time of the seige of Jerusalem in AD 67-70. Those left were the ones who heeded Jesus' warnings to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which they did. Thus the believers were saved to continue the church (the man child in the desert) and the Temple and priests of Judaism were forever judged and done away with. I also believe the Harlot to have been apostate Judaism and Babylon the Great to have been Jerusalem, which Christ lamented over in the book of Matt.

There is so much scripture which declares a judgment to be on Judaism.

The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to those who will produce its fruit.

You who murdered the prophets...

Those outside the wedding feast will be invited in, because those who were invited did not come....
 
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jukesk9

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This is my take on End Times....I take Christ to heart when He says no one knows, except for the Father, when the Second Coming will happen. Like a good Boy Scout, I'll be prepared for that thief in the night. I don't worry about the False Prophet, the Anti-Christ, etc. If you believe in Jesus, you've nothing to worry about.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by seekingtruth
If I may jump in here, I am a fellow preterist. I also see the taking of the one in the field to mean the ones taken into captivity at the time of the seige of Jerusalem in AD 67-70. Those left were the ones who heeded Jesus' warnings to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, which they did. Thus the believers were saved to continue the church (the man child in the desert) and the Temple and priests of Judaism were forever judged and done away with. I also believe the Harlot to have been apostate Judaism and Babylon the Great to have been Jerusalem, which Christ lamented over in the book of Matt.

There is so much scripture which declares a judgment to be on Judaism.

The kingdom will be taken away from you and given to those who will produce its fruit.

You who murdered the prophets...

Those outside the wedding feast will be invited in, because those who were invited did not come....

Hi seekingtruth,

Long time no talk! Are you still hangin' around the notdecieved.net msg board, now that preterists were booted? Anyway, it's good to see you again.

I don't know if you're aware by now, but I'm actually considering becoming Catholic. Hopefully this isn't too 'bizarre' for you =P But then again, adopting the preterist view was 'bizarre' to begin with :)

Anyway, I've prayed about possibly becoming Catholic and now I'm just seeking honest answers. I don't know if I'll make the decision overnight, but certainly God knows what's best for me, so I'm just waiting on him. :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by jukesk9
This is my take on End Times....I take Christ to heart when He says no one knows, except for the Father, when the Second Coming will happen. Like a good Boy Scout, I'll be prepared for that thief in the night. I don't worry about the False Prophet, the Anti-Christ, etc. If you believe in Jesus, you've nothing to worry about.

Hi Jukes,

Did you noticed that the word 'antichrist' doesn't show up ANYWHERE in the book of Revelation? :)

The word shows up in St. John's epistles (1 John and 2 John), 4 times in the New Testament. And based on John's definition of antichrist, we know he was referring to the gnostics, which had clearly nothing to do with some Mr. Antichrist figure, which is clearly unbiblical. Check it out =)

Of course the beast of revelation is completely different story =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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AlphaPhi

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If you'r econsidering becoming Catholic, get in touch with the local parish in August, which should be just before they start up their RCIA classes, which is a 6 or so month long course (usually once a week) that instructs you on the Catholic faith prior to conversion (which is always, with few exceptions, on the Easter Vigil). Great program, usually, very informative, and a good forum to have your questions answered.
 
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Avila

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Hoonbaba - on the subject of Dr. Hahn writing a book on the End Times and eschatology - we can only hope he will! ;) Seriously - this guy's book Rome Sweet Home was what got me started on my journey to Catholicism & I've loved everything I've read of his ever since then!

BTW, I second the RCIA suggestion - most parishes do it from the end of summer to Easter, but some parishes do adopt a more liberal idea of the process and will start your Inquiry and/or instruction whenever you ask - then they will bring you in when it is deemed that you are ready (which may or may not be Easter). You can start out in the Inquiry part of it - just picking the brains of the RCIA team! :D
 
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Hoonbaba

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Thank you all for the recommendations, but I don't know if I'll have time for that.

Actually I think I'll just do all the reading myself! I have Scott Hahns' book "A Father who keeps his promises" and I just started reading yesterday. So far it's great stuff (I'm on page 40 already) =)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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