Catholic comments please =)

[Hoonbaba]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering what Catholics would say about the following statements:

 

I have talked to many catholics and they will flat out tell you, "I don't believe in all that born again stuff." Many believe that as long as you're a good person, perform the sacraments prescribed by the church, get water baptized as a baby and again as an adult, go to confession and have your sins forgiven by a priest, then you'll go to purgatory and friends and relatives will have to give money to the church and offer prayers to get you out in order to be cleansed and go to heaven.

Absolutely heretical and ridiculous!

Which reminds me, I have a question. I have a co-worker who is a former catholic. One of the reasons he left the catholic church was because he got remarried and they refused him the eucharist. Now catholics believe the eucharist is essential for salvation, taking literally the scriptures in John 6 that say that he that doesn't eat the body of Christ and drink His blood cannot be saved.

Now, if this is true, and it's not, isn't the catholic church denying salvation (based on the catholic belief that you must eat the body of Christ and drink His blood to be saved) to this man because he has been divorced and remarried? If so, doesn't this go in direct violation of the teachings of Christ, who offered salvation to the woman in John 4 who was divorced and remarried 5 times?

The reason I ask, is because primarily about the remarriage issue.  What does the Catholic church teach about this?  And can someone show me the truth about the other comments?

Thanks and God bless!

-Jason

 

[your_quagga]

jason,

Catholics are born again every day...a Catholic who says otherwise is misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase...

as to receiving the Eucharist following a remarriage, it depends on the circumstances of the remarriage (civil marriage, i am guessing?)...the Church denies salvation to no one...many people, however, make attaining it more difficult by wrangling with disobedience as a result of their pride...without knowing the particulars of why your friend was refused the opportunity to partake of the Eucharist, it is hard to explain.

i would ask your friend if he has recently spoken to a priest concerning this refusal...i know many Catholics who have left the Church over misunderstandings and failure to communicate with their spiritual directors than anything else...

God bless you...

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

To remarry in the Catholic Church, a person must get a Church annulment. This is NOT the same as a divorce. A divorce is a civil procedure; an annulment is a church procedure.

The Church will only grant an annulment if it can be shown that the first marriage was NON-Sacramental. That basically means a LOT of interviews, a lot of talking, a lot of investigating. If I understand the process correctly, the annulment request, along with all the accompanying documents, is reviewed by a committee, I THINK at the Diocese level.

It's not easy, it's very time-consuming, and there are a great deal of misconceptions about the whole mess. That's why many Catholics end up leaving the Church, or stop participating in the Church. They may obtain a civil divorce and remarry in another faith, and feel the Catholic Church abandoned them in their time of crisis.

First off, Marriage is a SACRAMENT. People today, society today, treat marriage like a paper plate. Grab a plate, fill it up, and when it is empty and soiled, throw it away and get a new one. Marriage is serious business. It's a ministry, and God Himself takes two people and makes them One.

In our parish, two people who wish to marry must start making plans a year in advance. There is mandatory premarital counseling, and the couple also are required to go on a retreat together.

As always, if you need more information, you should talk to a priest.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by your_quagga
jason,

Catholics are born again every day...a Catholic who says otherwise is misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase...

as to receiving the Eucharist following a remarriage, it depends on the circumstances of the remarriage (civil marriage, i am guessing?)...the Church denies salvation to no one...many people, however, make attaining it more difficult by wrangling with disobedience as a result of their pride...without knowing the particulars of why your friend was refused the opportunity to partake of the Eucharist, it is hard to explain.

i would ask your friend if he has recently spoken to a priest concerning this refusal...i know many Catholics who have left the Church over misunderstandings and failure to communicate with their spiritual directors than anything else...

God bless you...

Hi quagga,

Those aren't my comments, it's someone else's

Also, if one DOESN'T partake in the Eucharist, does that mean the person isn't saved?  In other words, if someone becomes Catholic and dies before partaking in the Eucharist, what happens?

-Jason

 

[your_quagga]

VOW, Jason

yes, the annulment of a previous marriage is determined by the bishop of the diocese, who usually has a triumverate who does the questioning and examining of the petition...it is a lengthy process and people do get frustrated at how much time and energy is takes, but as VOW pointed out, the sacramental state of marriage is not to be taken lightly...

...and if your faith is important to you (which it absolutely should be), the "inconvenience" is a minor thing in the grand scheme of your relationship with the Lord.

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

If an unbaptized person is taking Catholic instruction and has spoken with the priest as to his or her conviction to become Catholic, and then dies before joining the Church, I believe with all my heart and soul that person will enter Paradise to feast at the table of the Lamb.

It's what happens in your HEART.

All the Sacraments, from Baptism to Last Rites, provide the soul with GRACE. The Grace alone will not gain you entry into heaven, but the faith that is created and nourished by the Grace WILL.

The "quasi-Catholic" you described in your first post MAY get into heaven but by the skin of his teeth. It's really not up to me to decide, LOL. But there doesn't seem to be the investment of HEART and SOUL into the faith. If you don't understand or appreciate the Sacraments of the Church, you really aren't availing yourself of the Grace the Sacraments provide.

What's really sad is those very "quasi-Catholics" are the source of the misunderstandings and misconceptions that non-Catholics have about the Catholic Church.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

To remarry in the Catholic Church, a person must get a Church annulment. This is NOT the same as a divorce. A divorce is a civil procedure; an annulment is a church procedure.

The Church will only grant an annulment if it can be shown that the first marriage was NON-Sacramental. That basically means a LOT of interviews, a lot of talking, a lot of investigating. If I understand the process correctly, the annulment request, along with all the accompanying documents, is reviewed by a committee, I THINK at the Diocese level.

It's not easy, it's very time-consuming, and there are a great deal of misconceptions about the whole mess. That's why many Catholics end up leaving the Church, or stop participating in the Church. They may obtain a civil divorce and remarry in another faith, and feel the Catholic Church abandoned them in their time of crisis.

First off, Marriage is a SACRAMENT. People today, society today, treat marriage like a paper plate. Grab a plate, fill it up, and when it is empty and soiled, throw it away and get a new one. Marriage is serious business. It's a ministry, and God Himself takes two people and makes them One.

In our parish, two people who wish to marry must start making plans a year in advance. There is mandatory premarital counseling, and the couple also are required to go on a retreat together.

As always, if you need more information, you should talk to a priest.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hi VOW,

Thanks for sharing.  I guess the ramifications of any sort of divorce has extreme consequences.  And I find it amazing how the Church actually undergoes a long process for this kind of thing, just like how the Church literally follow the commands of Matt 18:15-17 when it comes to excommunication.  Protestants don't even have a process, they just say, "get out!"

Anyway, I totally agree with the marriage as a sacrament It's amazing how the Bible says,

"So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." (Matt 19:6)

After reading that a few times, I realized it's not only talking about divorce, but ALSO abortion!  When the sperm and the egg literally become one, if man separates that, it's literally disobeying Jesus' command!

Just thought I'd share that =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[your_quagga]

Jason,

anyone who prevents themselves from reconciling their faith is making a choice against God...there is no reason your friend could not heal the break he made with the Church and resume a fully sacramental life...

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by your_quagga
Jason,

anyone who prevents themselves from reconciling their faith is making a choice against God...there is no reason your friend could not heal the break he made with the Church and resume a fully sacramental life...

By the way, he's not my friend =P I just saw those comments on another forum, and so I was just wondering what people thought about it

-jason

 

[your_quagga]

isn't everyone your friend....in Christ?....

 

[Hoonbaba]

VOW,

But what if a baptized Christian converts to Catholicism and hasn't received the Eucharist.  John 6:53 makes it clear that those who haven't eaten 'the flesh of the Son of Man and drank his blood' don't have life in them.

Those words sounds VERY powerful.

Thoughts?

-Jason

 

[your_quagga]

Jason,

the Lord is merciful and just and would not condemn someone for being hit by a bus on their way to their first holy communion (or confirmation if they are a convert)...if the intent in the heart of the communicant is pure, then he or she receives the blood and body in the Holy Spirit (just as baptism by water is not the only means of obtaining this sacrament), partaking of Christ is spiritual as well as manifested physically...

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by your_quagga
Jason,

the Lord is merciful and just and would not condemn someone for being hit by a bus on their way to their first holy communion (or confirmation if they are a convert)...if the intent in the heart of the communicant is pure, then he or she receives the blood and body in the Holy Spirit (just as baptism by water is not the only means of obtaining this sacrament), partaking of Christ is spiritual as well as manifested physically...

quagga,

can you explain what you meant by "just as baptism by water is not the only means of obtaining this sacrament"??  One can be baptized without the water?  Or are you referring to baptism of desire?

Also, is that to say that we don't have to partake in the Eucharist to have life in us in light of John 6:53?  I'm lost =P

God bless!

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Remember, non-Catholic Christians don't believe in Transubstantiation. THEY aren't receiving the True Body and True Blood of our Lord. Yet the Catholic Church teaches that our brothers and sisters in Christ who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church can still attain heaven.

Catholics believe that we most definitely need the regular spiritual and physical nourishment of the Eucharist. But we don't receive Communion because it is a "sure ticket" to heaven. We receive Communion to help us to grow and learn and become more like Christ.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

Remember, non-Catholic Christians don't believe in Transubstantiation. THEY aren't receiving the True Body and True Blood of our Lord. Yet the Catholic Church teaches that our brothers and sisters in Christ who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church can still attain heaven.

Catholics believe that we most definitely need the regular spiritual and physical nourishment of the Eucharist. But we don't receive Communion because it is a "sure ticket" to heaven. We receive Communion to help us to grow and learn and become more like Christ.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

VOW,

That makes a lot of sense, but I don't think it explains John 6:53.  Unless I clearly missed something really important.

God bless!

-Jason

 

 

[isshinwhat]

get water baptized as a baby and again as an adult,

One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins... Yeah... This guy knows what he's talking about...

But what if a baptized Christian converts to Catholicism and hasn't received the Eucharist.

What got the people in trouble in John 6:53 was their immediate rejection of Jesus to His face. He had just made clear what He meant, and they rejected it. Similarly, that is why we say there is a difference between a Protestant who can't take the Eucharist, a former Catholic who honestly left the Catholic Church for a Protestant faith and cannot participate in Communion, and a Former Catholic who has left the Church because of some issue of pride or through excommunication. The first two are fine, the last two have very deep issues of self-centerdness. If you are so proud that you want to keep doing whatever it was that got you (validly) excommunicated, rather than seek reconciliation and participation in the Lord's Supper, then you have chosen yourself over Christ.

Participation in the Eucharist is a great source of grace, and a beautiful mystery. Rejection of it would truly mean that one "had no life in them." Do you understand more clearly now, or did I make it worse?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

The IMPORTANCE of Jesus's words in John 6:53 is why I hold a very fierce personal grudge against Martin Luther. Ole Marty may have retained part of the concept of Transubstantiation for his followers, but each subsequent splinter of Protestantism fell further and further away from the Real Presence, so that today there are non-Catholic Christian church creeds which state that "Transubstantiation is repugnant."

I feel that people have been ripped off to the max, have been cheated of something precious and wonderful, and it breaks my heart.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Neal,

Thanks for sharing!  I think it sorta makes more sense.  So what matter is the heart, not so much the outward act of partaking in the sacrament itself.  Now, I'm not downplaying the need for the sacraments, but it seems that if a believer, who dies before experiencing any of the sacraments, would go to heaven as long as he he was truly following Jesus and had the desire to partake in them.

However, if he or she rejects the sacraments, then that would make one question whether he or she is really a believer to begin with.

Is this what you're saying?

-Jason

 

[isshinwhat]

Now, I'm not downplaying the need for the sacraments, but it seems that if a believer, who dies before experiencing any of the sacraments, would go to heaven as long as he he was truly following Jesus and had the desire to partake in them.

I would agree.

However, if he or she rejects the sacraments, then that would make one question whether he or she is really a believer to begin with.

Exactly. Not only rejection of them, but improper reception, as well.

1 Corinthians 11:27

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

These aren't just rituals, they are vessels of grace. In Communion, we actually come in direct contact with God. They are far beyond the "nice additions" to the core of Christianity that some make them out to be. They are a key way in which we "escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature," (2 Peter 1:4). They are fountains of God's grace for those who rightfully receive them. For those who do not, they are sources of condemnation, because the grace of God is mocked and defiled by them. Think about the beautiful spiritual reality that happens at Baptism. We literally die with Christ, and rise again into new life.   Amazing stuff.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

The IMPORTANCE of Jesus's words in John 6:53 is why I hold a very fierce personal grudge against Martin Luther. Ole Marty may have retained part of the concept of Transubstantiation for his followers, but each subsequent splinter of Protestantism fell further and further away from the Real Presence, so that today there are non-Catholic Christian church creeds which state that "Transubstantiation is repugnant."

I feel that people have been ripped off to the max, have been cheated of something precious and wonderful, and it breaks my heart.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hi VOW,

I just thought I'd share a little something that I came across.  I was listening to a message by a well known protestant theologian:  R.C. Sproul, and he teaches that those of the reformed tradition, actually embrace the Real Presence, but not through transubstantiation.

Jesus 'reveals' himself through the communion right?  One brother commented how Jesus made himself known to the disciples (after the resurrection), by 'breaking bread' (Luke 24:35).  I think there's a real truth to that, but at the same time I think there's MORE than that

In anycase, the reformed tradition does embrace the Real Presence, but in a 'diluted' manner so to speak.

-Jason