Catch 22 sinning / ripping off the bandaid

[DZoolander]

Okay, lol, fine. Here's a more fleshed out example. Now, mind you before you start going down the road of "but that's sin", I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it fits within my scenario/question.

I think we all can pretty much recognize that there are a lot of people within the faith that have an unhealthy relationship with sexual issues. The boards on here are rife with people that have inappropriate contentography addictions, have unhappy marriages because they wonder if the grass is greener elsewhere, many married prematurely in order to "avoid sin" and are now dealing with the (often foreseeable) consequences of a rash decision, blah blah. It's my contention that a huge percentage of that is due to the focus on chastity/fornication issue.

In a lot of respects, I kind of view my life as having two parts. There's the period of when I was a kid until my late 20's (my formative years leading up to my first marriage and then divorce), and then my late 20's until present.

In the first "half" - I had a more conventional (religiously inspired) view on sex. While not completely in line, I had only been with one person. I hadn't slept around, I married the person I lost my virginity to, I viewed sex as something of sanctity between two loving people, etc. Or at least that was how I behaved.

But that's not to say that that the time was not fraught with problems. As I discussed in a different thread on here, my girlfriend/spouse hadn't been a virgin before us. She's been with around 10 people before me. That reeked a lot of havoc within me during the early stage of our relationship, but I learned to live with it and put it out of my mind. I also would say that I wasn't 100% content with my decision. I wondered about what it would be like to have sex with other people. I wondered if sex was different with other people. I struggled with all sorts of thoughts like that - in a way very similar to what you see often on this board.

Now, I've always had a reasonably disciplined mind, so I was able to train myself not to allow those thoughts to get out of control or create detrimental situations. For the bulk of that 8 year relationship, it was pretty happy, albeit with those lingering thoughts in my head/wonderings/etc.

BUT...I have to admit...I wonder how things would have been with respect to that once the marriage started to unravel - and say I'd stayed with her...ya know? I mean sure, I could put those things out of my head because the relationship seemed happy...but what about once things started becoming miserable as they did? Would the discipline I had to keep myself from wandering into more dangerous areas of thoughts have remained once things just started to really suck? While she was out there doing things that I found revolting?

Honestly speaking - I don't know. I don't think so.

So, I divorced her. And in a lot of ways - divorcing her gave me the liberty to start thinking about what was right and what was wrong about that previous relationship. The fact that I wondered about other people, that I desired other people, that I had thoughts about other people even while happy bothered me. The fact that I felt insecure about the fact she had been with other people and I had not bothered me. There were a ton of things that bothered me about that first relationship that I had a chance to really sit back and evaluate/think about...because I did not want them again.

The more I thought about it - the more I came to the conclusion that every single one of those things revolved around one central idea. I wondered about things that I did not know. I saw other people not remaining chaste, and I envied them and their knowledge of the subject. I weighed the odds of me ending up with someone else that had not remained chaste - and saw a very high chance I could end up in exactly the same predicament again.

So, I made a decision. I'm not going to operate in ignorance and wonderment anymore. Fornication was no longer going to be an issue for me. If I want to sleep with someone, and they'll have me, I'll sleep with them. If I want to carry on with someone, I'll carry on with them. I want to find out - and let's see where this goes. Was sex better with this type of person than that type of person? Was there really a difference? Were there these possible differences going on that I had envisioned? Were there these distinctions that I was unaware of that did plague me to some extent or other throughout the 8 years of being with that one person?

That's what I did for about 4-5 years after getting divorced. I dated around. I sampled the waters. I got to know the answers to the things that I'd wondered about. Now, I wasn't REALLY promiscuous - I mean we're not talking huge numbers, but the sample group is pretty decent.

And ya know, once I did meet someone else that I wanted to settle down with, I settled down.

I can honestly say that I think that was a good decision on my part. None of the thoughts that plagued my inner dialogue are an issue any more and have not been. I don't feel like maybe I was premature in my decisions or that I could have had something better had I just waited a little longer. I don't wonder if other people might be better. I don't wonder if other people might be different. I'm not operating from a place of conjecture any more - I'm operating from an informed position.

And - not having those types of inner monologues and wonderments does make me a better spouse in my opinion. How can it not? I can honestly say that in both thought and deed - my relationship with my spouse is far more righteous now than it was with my ex-wife...and that it's entirely the consequence of that decision I made. If I were to weigh/predict how things would have evolved had I stayed with my ex-wife given EVERYTHING (her behaviors, my insecurities, my wonderings, etc) - against what I experience now - there is no comparison.

I don't carry the baggage you see plaguing lots of other people. I don't watch inappropriate content. I don't wonder about others. I don't have inner turmoil over my partner's past. I don't wonder about sex with other people (lust after them). Granting myself 'sin' in order to find out about those things - and understanding how that played out in my own psyche - fixed all of those other things.

Now that's not to say I don't carry other baggage around...lol...but the types of things you see other people unable to seemingly fix ain't it.

---

So there's a more concrete example. Now, once again, I'm not interested in going down the road of "fornication is a sin". For all intents and purposes - I'm agreeing with you and granting that in this conversation. What I'm saying, is at least within my own example, that one "sin" taken on willingly/temporarily had the consequence of a far more righteous state of being after with how I view/behave with/relate to my wife.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, okay, I see what you mean. In your case, this has worked out, pragmatically speaking, reasonably well for you in terms of your current marriage.

I think in order to justify this approach, ethically, I'd also have to be able to make a solid case that no other way of dealing with the issues would be effective. Ie. It's not just the easiest option, it really is the only option.

 

[DZoolander]

Yes, okay, I see what you mean. In your case, this has worked out, pragmatically speaking, reasonably well for you in terms of your current marriage.

I think in order to justify this approach, ethically, I'd also have to be able to make a solid case that no other way of dealing with the issues would be effective. Ie. It's not just the easiest option, it really is the only option.

Yeah, I'm not saying to be willy-nilly about it... lol

In my situation I think it worked out because I know myself, the root causes of problems in the past, etc. I know my nature and how it plays into things.

My insecurities in the past did revolve around one thing - "wondering". I didn't see how to stop myself from wondering. Sure - I could regulate my BEHAVIORS - and to some degree my thoughts... But - what if things started to suck again? That was the thing that bothered me about my previous marriage. Sure, I didn't *DO* anything - mostly because things were good.

But let's say I'd stuck with her after things got bad. How apt would I be to keep being successful in regulating my thoughts/behaviors? How about after a year? How about after 2 years? How long until the little rolling snowball of a thought in my head became an avalanche faced with a crappy situation?

I'm not saying my current marriage is perfect - lol - none is. But those types of things aren't an issue in my inner monologue any more - and there's a very specific reason why.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm curious about other people's opinions.

On a different thread in here - a subject was KINDA touched upon that I've always had an interest in...which is the idea of weighing/substituting "sin" for a greater good. Without going into specifics of THAT topic in the event they wouldn't want to be made an example of - let me post a scenario for you.

Let's say you're a cheater. You've always been a cheater. You are always going to be a cheater. I'm not looking for discussions about "God can change hearts" or "You don't know", I'm just postulating that as a fact to begin with. You may feel some degree of remorse, but as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, you know that you will cheat again. It's just in your nature. You are self aware enough to know it.

You also are married. Your wife/husband has the same normal expectations of fidelity that anyone else would. Clearly this is a problem.

If someone were to present me with that scenario, I would tell the cheater to divorce his/her spouse. Sure - you could make the argument that divorce is a "sin" - but in my eyes so is spending a lifetime betraying your spouse. With that in mind - I weigh the two and go "rip off the bandaid with the one 'sin' to avoid hundreds more."

That's the idea I'm curious about...and the first example that comes to mind. Maybe not the best example as it might lead to discussion on weighing divorce vs. numerous instances of infidelity - but that's not my interest/intent here...lol Rather the idea that if one 'sin' can solve a situation that would result in many more left alone - what would you do?

...what an opening for an OP, DZoolander! It's one with a lot of relevance and nuance. But, I'm wondering this: is the hypothetical cheater here a Christian or a non-Christian? I ask because on a practical level, it should make a difference.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay, lol, fine. Here's a more fleshed out example. Now, mind you before you start going down the road of "but that's sin", I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it fits within my scenario/question.

I think we all can pretty much recognize that there are a lot of people within the faith that have an unhealthy relationship with sexual issues. The boards on here are rife with people that have inappropriate contentography addictions, have unhappy marriages because they wonder if the grass is greener elsewhere, many married prematurely in order to "avoid sin" and are now dealing with the (often foreseeable) consequences of a rash decision, blah blah. It's my contention that a huge percentage of that is due to the focus on chastity/fornication issue.

....yeah, I don't think all of our relational problems come solely from wrestling with the chastity/fornication issue. It'd probably we more accurate to say that we as Christians should take very seriously the spiritual issues that are involved with the onset of the Raunch Culture that has permeated our overall culture. We need to realize that like Eve (and Adam) with the Serpent, we're being manipulated to head in a certain direction so that we choose to become "that kind of person."

However, the family experience I had when growing up as a child was one in which I could very well understand how one spouse might wonder if things are indeed "greener" somewhere else and not simply because he wanted to trade in the car he has for a shinier, newer model. No, sometimes, in some marriages, we do have to admit that like in our cars these days, sometimes the "air-bag" employs when it's not supposed to, all of which can put a big monkey-wrench in our driver's attempt to drive well and keep things on the right path. Sometimes, a divorce might be nearly inevitable. But such cases could be fewer than what our society heretofore thinks there should be.

In a lot of respects, I kind of view my life as having two parts. There's the period of when I was a kid until my late 20's (my formative years leading up to my first marriage and then divorce), and then my late 20's until present.

In the first "half" - I had a more conventional (religiously inspired) view on sex. While not completely in line, I had only been with one person. I hadn't slept around, I married the person I lost my virginity to, I viewed sex as something of sanctity between two loving people, etc. Or at least that was how I behaved.

But that's not to say that that the time was not fraught with problems. As I discussed in a different thread on here, my girlfriend/spouse hadn't been a virgin before us. She's been with around 10 people before me. That reeked a lot of havoc within me during the early stage of our relationship, but I learned to live with it and put it out of my mind. I also would say that I wasn't 100% content with my decision. I wondered about what it would be like to have sex with other people. I wondered if sex was different with other people. I struggled with all sorts of thoughts like that - in a way very similar to what you see often on this board.

Now, I've always had a reasonably disciplined mind, so I was able to train myself not to allow those thoughts to get out of control or create detrimental situations. For the bulk of that 8 year relationship, it was pretty happy, albeit with those lingering thoughts in my head/wonderings/etc.

BUT...I have to admit...I wonder how things would have been with respect to that once the marriage started to unravel - and say I'd stayed with her...ya know? I mean sure, I could put those things out of my head because the relationship seemed happy...but what about once things started becoming miserable as they did? Would the discipline I had to keep myself from wandering into more dangerous areas of thoughts have remained once things just started to really suck? While she was out there doing things that I found revolting?

Honestly speaking - I don't know. I don't think so.

So, I divorced her. And in a lot of ways - divorcing her gave me the liberty to start thinking about what was right and what was wrong about that previous relationship. The fact that I wondered about other people, that I desired other people, that I had thoughts about other people even while happy bothered me. The fact that I felt insecure about the fact she had been with other people and I had not bothered me. There were a ton of things that bothered me about that first relationship that I had a chance to really sit back and evaluate/think about...because I did not want them again.

The more I thought about it - the more I came to the conclusion that every single one of those things revolved around one central idea. I wondered about things that I did not know. I saw other people not remaining chaste, and I envied them and their knowledge of the subject. I weighed the odds of me ending up with someone else that had not remained chaste - and saw a very high chance I could end up in exactly the same predicament again.

So, I made a decision. I'm not going to operate in ignorance and wonderment anymore. Fornication was no longer going to be an issue for me. If I want to sleep with someone, and they'll have me, I'll sleep with them. If I want to carry on with someone, I'll carry on with them. I want to find out - and let's see where this goes. Was sex better with this type of person than that type of person? Was there really a difference? Were there these possible differences going on that I had envisioned? Were there these distinctions that I was unaware of that did plague me to some extent or other throughout the 8 years of being with that one person?

That's what I did for about 4-5 years after getting divorced. I dated around. I sampled the waters. I got to know the answers to the things that I'd wondered about. Now, I wasn't REALLY promiscuous - I mean we're not talking huge numbers, but the sample group is pretty decent.

And ya know, once I did meet someone else that I wanted to settle down with, I settled down.

I can honestly say that I think that was a good decision on my part. None of the thoughts that plagued my inner dialogue are an issue any more and have not been. I don't feel like maybe I was premature in my decisions or that I could have had something better had I just waited a little longer. I don't wonder if other people might be better. I don't wonder if other people might be different. I'm not operating from a place of conjecture any more - I'm operating from an informed position.

And - not having those types of inner monologues and wonderments does make me a better spouse in my opinion. How can it not? I can honestly say that in both thought and deed - my relationship with my spouse is far more righteous now than it was with my ex-wife...and that it's entirely the consequence of that decision I made. If I were to weigh/predict how things would have evolved had I stayed with my ex-wife given EVERYTHING (her behaviors, my insecurities, my wonderings, etc) - against what I experience now - there is no comparison.

I don't carry the baggage you see plaguing lots of other people. I don't watch inappropriate content. I don't wonder about others. I don't have inner turmoil over my partner's past. I don't wonder about sex with other people (lust after them). Granting myself 'sin' in order to find out about those things - and understanding how that played out in my own psyche - fixed all of those other things.

Now that's not to say I don't carry other baggage around...lol...but the types of things you see other people unable to seemingly fix ain't it.

---

So there's a more concrete example. Now, once again, I'm not interested in going down the road of "fornication is a sin". For all intents and purposes - I'm agreeing with you and granting that in this conversation. What I'm saying, is at least within my own example, that one "sin" taken on willingly/temporarily had the consequence of a far more righteous state of being after with how I view/behave with/relate to my wife.

I empathize, but as a fellow, brother who is just as human as you are, I can safely say that what the world pretends to offer isn't something that would really mend all of our wounds from the past, give us our heart's desire, or take us to more promising futures here in our earthly lives. Sure, we can dream about it, but even if we come to realize our dreams, nevertheless, those fancies are fraught with other baggage. I mean...................not everyone gets to fly with Southwest airlines where the cost of extra bags is free.

 

[DZoolander]

...what an opening for an OP, DZoolander! It's one with a lot of relevance and nuance. But, I'm wondering this: is the hypothetical cheater here a Christian or a non-Christian? I ask because on a practical level, it should make a difference.

While I was posting a pure hypothetical there - I'm curious how it would make a difference...

Would you be hoping that as a Christian there would be the potential for God changing hearts? Because I'm disqualifying that as a possibility from the getgo in the scenario I painted...lol

 

[DZoolander]

However, the family experience I had when growing up as a child was one in which I could very well understand how one spouse might wonder if things are indeed "greener" somewhere else and not simply because he wanted to trade in the car he has for a shinier, newer model. No, sometimes, in some marriages, we do have to admit that like in our cars these days, sometimes the "air-bag" employs when it's not supposed to, all of which can put a big monkey-wrench in our driver's attempt to drive well and keep things on the right path. Sometimes, a divorce might be nearly inevitable. But such cases could be fewer than what our society heretofore thinks there should be.

I empathize, but as a fellow, brother who is just as human as you are, I can safely say that what the world pretends to offer isn't something that would really mend all of our wounds from the past, give us our heart's desire, or take us to more promising futures here in our earthly lives. Sure, we can dream about it, but even if we come to realize our dreams, nevertheless, those fancies are fraught with other baggage. I mean...................not everyone gets to fly with Southwest airlines where the cost of extra bags is free.

Ya know what was interesting about that "period of discovery" - is that the way it assuaged my earlier concerns and wonderings. Turns out - there really aren't that many differences - and for the most part most of the things I imagined might be different were purely in my head. I think that's the reason why it had the impact it did - where now I don't have a wandering eye/etc - is because I don't really think "Maybe if I'd chosen type A over B, I'd be happier over the long haul."

I'm not going to say that there AREN'T differences - but they're things that I think most people could figure out by themselves. Mostly it has to do with enthusiasm on the part of your partner...lol And heck - a huge percent of the issues that we see on these boards and elsewhere really does kind of boil down to that.

Another thing that I think is common sense but gets often overlooked is to ensure that you're actually attracted to your partner...which goes toward enthusiasm I'm sure. Too often you see people posting things like "I thought he/she was a Godly person - and that the attraction would grow". I don't necessarily think it works that way - especially if you're NOT attracted to them. Make sure you get that "hubba hubba" feeling about them - from the very start.

But apart from those kinda common sense things - there aren't these big differences between people that I had kinda wondered beforehand.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

While I was posting a pure hypothetical there - I'm curious how it would make a difference...

I think you know the answer already, DZ. We Christians "should" (and I place this qualifier in scare quotes for a reason) be able work through our relationship problems better than we do, or a least better in comparison to our more secular, humanist neighbors. As it stands now, we basically suck as bad as they do in doing so. The only difference is that those who still claim to be Christian aren't simply continuing to pay for a monthly subscription to Poly-amory-is-Us.

Would you be hoping that as a Christian there would be the potential for God changing hearts? Because I'm disqualifying that as a possibility from the getgo in the scenario I painted...lol

Yes, I might be thinking that as Christians we could at least give Jesus some little space to do what He might do in our lives. On the other hand, as a social realist, I know that people don't change easily and that some of the social crap we have to deal with is......really difficult to deal with, Christian or no Christian.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ya know what was interesting about that "period of discovery" - is that the way it assuaged my earlier concerns and wonderings. Turns out - there really aren't that many differences - and for the most part most of the things I imagined might be different were purely in my head. I think that's the reason why it had the impact it did - where now I don't have a wandering eye/etc - is because I don't really think "Maybe if I'd chosen type A over B, I'd be happier over the long haul."

I'm not going to say that there AREN'T differences - but they're things that I think most people could figure out by themselves. Mostly it has to do with enthusiasm on the part of your partner...lol And heck - a huge percent of the issues that we see on these boards and elsewhere really does kind of boil down to that.

Another thing that I think is common sense but gets often overlooked is to ensure that you're actually attracted to your partner...which goes toward enthusiasm I'm sure. Too often you see people posting things like "I thought he/she was a Godly person - and that the attraction would grow". I don't necessarily think it works that way - especially if you're NOT attracted to them. Make sure you get that "hubba hubba" feeling about them - from the very start.

But apart from those kinda common sense things - there aren't these big differences between people that I had kinda wondered beforehand.

....I'd have a response, but I can't see anything really to disagree with here in your post. I think it's mostly true.

 

[akmom]

So... you think the solution to the problem of always wondering if the grass is greener on the other side, is to literally run around on all the lawns, and get it out of your system? If not every single lawn, at least most of the lawns in a certain radius, and definitely all types of lawns.

I can see how you might come to that conclusion, but I don't think it's necessarily truth. I think your desire to trample all the lawns in the neighborhood came from your marital discontent, and might not have even been an issue had you been happy with the first lawn. (And you might have been happy with the first lawn had you selected it better.)

We always have a tendency to want to rebel in matters where we felt repressed, and to blame those very restrictions for our failures. I can think of a handful of issues where I made the pendulum swing the other way simply because I resented the extremism with which I was raised. But I've been humbled to realize, many times, that my upbringing was not totally wrong.

Boundaries are good for us. Perhaps it's true that obsessing over boundaries or making them too restrictive makes us want to break past them even more. But I think we should be careful about making the case for no boundaries, or virtually no boundaries.

 

[DZoolander]

lol - the trampling of other lawns analogy made me chuckle - thanks for giving me an early laugh!

Continuing on with that line of thinking...I guess the way I'd look at it is...

Let's say you're aware lawns exist. You've spent quite a bit of time fantasizing about them but you've never had any direct contact with one. You've seen some pictures, you've seen some specials on TV about well maintained lawns and the joys of lawns, but you've never actually been around one. Most of the people you know, though, have...and they sure do talk up a good game about them and make it sound like there's all these grand differences between this lawn and that lawn. They get to enjoy lawns all the time - so you take their word for it. You begin to believe that there are great differences between lawns - and it's important for you to choose very carefully...lest you forever get stuck with a lawn that while enjoyable...is comparatively sub par compared to what you COULD have.

...and that's an important thing...because the lawn you pick is the lawn you're going to stick with.

Finally you get a house with a lawn - and you're overjoyed. You quite like that lawn - and for a good amount of time you spend as much time as you can running through the lawn and enjoying what you've been missing and fantasizing about for all these years.

As time goes on though - you do start to notice the sky high walls surrounding your house - and implicitly you do realize that the fact those walls exist is to prevent you from seeing other lawns. Maybe that guy over there has a much better lawn. I know I don't have the worst lawn around, because I've seen pictures of really bad lawns. But there is this nagging suspicion (and truth to the fact) that I pretty much took the first house with a lawn that I could. I didn't shop around as much as I could have. Maybe I did myself a disservice.

Then there's the fact that the house was a rental before I bought it. It wasn't a new house with a new lawn. If other people decided the lawn wasn't good enough to make them buy the house, maybe they knew that better lawns could be had. Maybe my judgment was bad and theirs was better.

Eventually you decide that the lawn is good enough, the house is good enough, etc...but there is always the nagging part in the back of your head wondering about those things. They're no longer pressing issues and/or thoughts. They once were, but you've learned to be cool with the walls being there.

One day though, a ton of chinch bugs and dollar weed come in and infest your lawn - and bring rot to the house...and you decide you need to move out. Bye bye, lawn!

Now the walls are gone, the house is gone, and you're just kinda evaluating everything. The fact you had those thoughts before come back to the forefront, and you still do have those wonderings. Now that the walls are gone - and you know it's in your nature to frame your relationships in that context to some degree or other - why not actually go look at other lawns so you don't have to worry about that in the future? Why not see if there's any actual merit to those beliefs and frame your future actions accordingly? lol

 

[2PhiloVoid]

lol - the trampling of other lawns analogy made me chuckle - thanks for giving me an early laugh!

Continuing on with that line of thinking...I guess the way I'd look at it is...

Let's say you're aware lawns exist. You've spent quite a bit of time fantasizing about them but you've never had any direct contact with one. You've seen some pictures, you've seen some specials on TV about well maintained lawns and the joys of lawns, but you've never actually been around one. Most of the people you know, though, have...and they sure do talk up a good game about them and make it sound like there's all these grand differences between this lawn and that lawn. They get to enjoy lawns all the time - so you take their word for it. You begin to believe that there are great differences between lawns - and it's important for you to choose very carefully...lest you forever get stuck with a lawn that while enjoyable...is comparatively sub par compared to what you COULD have.

...and that's an important thing...because the lawn you pick is the lawn you're going to stick with.

Finally you get a house with a lawn - and you're overjoyed. You quite like that lawn - and for a good amount of time you spend as much time as you can running through the lawn and enjoying what you've been missing and fantasizing about for all these years.

As time goes on though - you do start to notice the sky high walls surrounding your house - and implicitly you do realize that the fact those walls exist is to prevent you from seeing other lawns. Maybe that guy over there has a much better lawn. I know I don't have the worst lawn around, because I've seen pictures of really bad lawns. But there is this nagging suspicion (and truth to the fact) that I pretty much took the first house with a lawn that I could. I didn't shop around as much as I could have. Maybe I did myself a disservice.

Then there's the fact that the house was a rental before I bought it. It wasn't a new house with a new lawn. If other people decided the lawn wasn't good enough to make them buy the house, maybe they knew that better lawns could be had. Maybe my judgment was bad and theirs was better.

Eventually you decide that the lawn is good enough, the house is good enough, etc...but there is always the nagging part in the back of your head wondering about those things. They're no longer pressing issues and/or thoughts. They once were, but you've learned to be cool with the walls being there.

One day though, a ton of chinch bugs and dollar weed come in and infest your lawn - and bring rot to the house...and you decide you need to move out. Bye bye, lawn!

Now the walls are gone, the house is gone, and you're just kinda evaluating everything. The fact you had those thoughts before come back to the forefront, and you still do have those wonderings. Now that the walls are gone - and you know it's in your nature to frame your relationships in that context to some degree or other - why not actually go look at other lawns so you don't have to worry about that in the future? Why not see if there's any actual merit to those beliefs and frame your future actions accordingly? lol

This has to be one of the most original (and funny) metaphorical discussions I've ever seen.......!!!!

Thanks, DZ, I needed that!

 

[akmom]

I could not read that response with a straight face!

Oh man. That was good.

I guess I'm suggesting that the fact that your lawn was a "rental" before is a good indication that it's likely to seek to be a rental again. I guess your experience was that you got it out of your system, but in your ex's experience, it was insight into a trend.