Casting Out Demons and the Name of Jesus

Originally posted by paulewog
Holy pickels, big post =)

Haha.... that's funny. Did you mean "Taz" ?

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He he! [] Actually, we Aussies use "s" in Tasmania but we call it "Tassie" and "Taz" is not unacceptable either. Though it's probably more of a correct spelling in the NorthWest corner of the world!

Deal! We're both confoozled. hehe =D

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I could clarify more but it feels like we're trying to bail each other out of the quicksand of befuddlement! Buuut...

The Is.28 passage was abt judgement being signified by a foreign language. The 1 Cor.14 passage was abt the use/abuse of tongues in the context of the edification of believers. The common thread in the two was the use of foreign tongues served to confound people from hearing the message and being helped by it, being a negative sign. On the other hand prophecy was a good sign that God was speaking to them. The abuse of the interpreted tongues meant that it became a negative sign to believers and only served to drive them away. Paul is not saying tongues is not to be used (he says do not forbid speaking in tongues) but that the way it was being used was having a negative effect on unbelievers.

I will have to revise what I said earlier, as I believe the passage is talking about believers vs non-believers, not Jews vs gentile. As I said, Corinth is a cosmopolitan city.

How would it relate? You would see your own sin, and know that God is very displeased with that.

As to the prophecy thing - a new revalatyion, something new from God, would be God's Word. Whether it's a "mere" ... hehe... prediction or not, it is still a new reavalation from God, and I don't believe that is around anymore. But, I'm trying not to have to have my posts go off in 200 different directions at once.... =D

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A story - one time Cindy Jacobs, a woman with a prophetic gifting gave this sudden word to a woman to go and tell her husband to go into the hospital emergeny ward immediately. The woman was shaken by this and phoned her husband who was travelling and eventually convinced him to go to the hospital immediately against all logic. As it turned out, he was discovered to have internal bleeding and had he waited a few hours more it would have killed him.

Here is just one example of prophecy revealing something that was not known by either Cindy or by anyone else but revealed by God spontaneously. This is something the written word of God could not have done.

Yes, the Bible does have guidelines. If you walk with the Lord.... in other words, follow everything in the Bible that is applicable (pray daily, read it, mediatate on it, take it to heart, walk in the Spirit basically...) then the Holy Spirit is very much influencing your life, and you simply will choose the right things. If you're walking in the Lord, the Lord isn't going to let you choose badly. You don't need a special revalation. =)

Also, common sense is somewaht halpeful, hehe. And God leads in that way also. He might "close a door" as it is said.

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Oh yeah, I agree - that God usually works that way. And common sense is definitely one good and normative way in which we are encouraged to operate when it comes to the will of God (it was used of Paul in Acts somewhere. 1 Cor.16:4). But sometimes (and not usually) a special revelation does come and it was needed at the right time. Two choices may seem very apples and oranges but sometimes God will tell you to choose the way that makes least sense because He sees something you do not.

Errr.... yes he could have. He knew he was in the wrong. He saw himself in the story that Nathan gave him. After it was pointed out, yes. But he understood what he had done. He knew the commandments about adultery and murder, and when Nathan said "thou art the man" (rough translation ), David needed no further conviction, he knew.

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Okay, yes it could have been done that way. It would have been absolutely valid for the written word to have done that and perhaps a better example might've been in order here. But then again, it wasn't done that way. And I think it was far more effective for Nathan to hit the mark so accurately like that.

Of course. I never said we shouldn't seek God's advice. Meaning, pray. I just don't think the prophet down the street can tell us what God is trying to say to us...

(yes, sarcasm =D)

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Yes, ask God. Pray. Read the Word. Wait on Him. All very good and right to do that. But I beg to differ on prophets - see Cindy Jacobs' story above.

Hrrrm, I THINK it is 1st Peter 4. Not sure on that, but it's towards the middle/end of 1st Peter.

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Sorry, can’t find it. L

I'm not denying that those of moer charismatic persuasion can be quite on fire for God, even I do believe they are mistaken about the healings and such. I am not saying that a healing didn't even take PLACE, necessarily.... but I don't think it's from a gift that the person has, or faith on the healee (as in the person that was healed). God can heal miraculously, and does, even through simple doctors.

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There’s nothing to suggest that God cannot heal through doctors, through miraculous intervention as well as through a person’s gift. Which touches on a common misconception about gifts like healing. It’s not like a superpower that you can heal at will. It doesn’t mean a person is healed every time completely when one prays, though it can happen. The same Spirit gives all the spiritual gifts. We all have the Spirit but the same Spirit releases the power to heal. And faith is a key too – even Jesus couldn’t heal all the time because of people’s lack of faith in one town, which amazed him.

However, the popular tv faith healers that tell you to touch the TV or something like that.... I think they are off the deep end, and are quite simply phony.

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For all the bad press the Word of Faith guys have had (it’s possible some of it is valid) I have heard a friend of a friend do the very thing – touch the TV – and they did find healing. Oh it’s weird and you may think it’s phony but I don’t believe it’s all bunk.

I don't think there is any reference whatsoever in the Bible where the gift of healing was ever used for believer's sakes, and never for just the health of someone. I pointed out earlier that Paul didn't heal himself or the sick guy at Miletus. Why not?

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This only proves my earlier point that healing doesn’t mean a person can heal at will or that each time one prays for healing one is completely healed. It’s up to God whether they are healed or not.

One problem I haev with this. Satan looks like an angel of light. He's not going to make it look weird. Furthermore, God can use mistaken people. I would not say that for sure, if some good fruit comes out of it, that it is of God. I would say that that is probably not what Satan would have had in mind though, hehe....

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But a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and neither can a bad tree bear good fruit. If someone is healed it doesn’t mean it is of God. Yes it could be Satan because Satan is a fallen angel created by God so he possess a measure of power that mimics the Creator’s. If the healed person is held by a sense of fear or anxiety or does not show godly character in their life as a result of the healing then it could be taken that that is the bad fruit from a bad source and that the healing was of Satan.

But if the healed person is praising God and showing godly joy and kindness, LOVE, etc. in their lives as a result then it’s of God.

I read of one account of a woman who was healed by an occultist. However, she seemed to live in a state of fear and anxiety which confused her. Then one day she went to a church (Brooklyn Tabernacle?) and she sensed a power there as well – only she said it was a clean power. I believe she found peace in God then and her fear and anxiety went away.

Do you believe that all believers receive the same spiritual gifts then? That seems kind of odd.

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Getting there.. 1 Cor.12:4-7 says:

4Now there are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but it is the same Holy Spirit who is the source of them all. 5There are different kinds of service in the church, but it is the same Lord we are serving. 6There are different ways God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work through all of us. 7A spiritual gift is given to each of us as a means of helping the entire church. (NLT)

Yes, they can certainly influence believers. Wolves in sheeps clothing. They don't look like demons if they can help it =P (figuratively speaking, I don't think we SEE angels/demons/satan/Jesus...)

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Bad trees bear bad fruit though – so I think signs will come out sooner or later. There are accounts of people being able to see something of the spiritual realm though and this is a gift of spiritual discernment. By biblical accounts though it seems the demons don’t seem to be able to keep cover when Jesus is around.

Or perhaps the experience is invalid. Experience is subjective. =)

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But experience can be tested and found valid in the light of evidence. Was a person sick before? Doctors can verify it. Was the person healed? Doctors (preferably the same doctors who saw the “before”) can verify it. Is the person showing the fruits of the Spirit in their lives? Is Jesus their Lord? (Others around them, both Christian and non-christian can verify it). If these can all be answered with a yes, then I would say the experience counts for something, surely as documented history esp. that of biblical history is valid in light of evidence.

Then you check the Bible – does it contradict it? If you think so then it’s not the bible’s fault. And if you still find the experience is valid then it comes down to interpretation and application. Otherwise we’re in trouble! Or we put it down to “mystery” or the bible’s silence on the subject.

By the way, it is interesting to note, on the Jesus-appearance things. I don't know, I've heard of people saying that he talekd to them in teh bathroom while they were shaving or something like that. What is interesting, however, is this...

In the OT, people fell on their faces and worshipped the Lord.

In the NT, even when an ANGEL appeared, he had to say do not be afraid.

In short, when Christ or even an angel appeared, the general response was falling falt on their face in worship. Which the angels didn't like.

So to say that you just calmly continued shaving and had a little conversation with Jesus.... just doesn't fit.

Just figured I'd mention that too. Why I don't know. My fingers were getting bored? [/B]

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I haven’t had the “Shaving” experience before, but I think the Spirit of God who dwells in believers is an intimate relator (John 14:23). It’s the Spirit of Jesus living in us. Think of Moses and how he got so close to God because the Spirit was on him then. Now that the Holy Spirit rests in all Christians and not come and go like in the Old Testament.

That being said, we can be too chummy with Jesus and forget his Kingship. I think there is a kind of balance between holy kingly reverence and intimate father-son relationship needed.

You're a musician Paulewog? What's your axe? I play the flute and recorder myself, and teaching myself the lefty-guitar.

2 Peter 1:17-21 (NASB)

16___For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17___For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"--
18___and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19___So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20___But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21___for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

er, will think on this one more since my Greek is a huge bagel...

cheers,

wblastyn,

you sound as if you believe God 'enjoys' letting bad terrible things happen to his children. Are earthly parents like that? How much more God!

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Don't put words in my mouth, I never said God enjoys it, I said He lets bad things happen, usually for a good reason. We can't see the big picture, only God can.

Yes I agree with you that God does allow bad things to happen to Christians, but he doesnt allow it with joy. Yes he does take the eggs and lemons that the devil throws at us and turn them into omelette and cool lemonade for us but he doesnt cheer the devil on.

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I never said that He did.  I meant people sugar coat God into this magical fairy who only does what pleases us, which is not true, look at Jonah, God wanted Jonah to be his prophet and instead he ran away because he was afraid, he did not want to do it.  People who don't believe in hell use the "God is all loving so He would not allow something so bad as hell to happen to His creation" logic, but they fail to see God is also a God of judgement.

"God does not give us what we WANT, but what we NEED."

That is simply unblibical

¥How in the world can He be called Al Shaddai -- the God who is more than enough -- if he only gives us what we need??!!

¥If God gives only what we need, why in the world were there 12 basketfuls leftover, a net-breaking, boat-sinking load of fishes??!!

¥Why did Abraham have thousands of camels, gold and silver, hundreds of servants etc.

¥Why did Jesus say "WHATSOEVER YE DESIRE...when ye pray believe that ye receive them..."

¥ Ps 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

¥ Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

¥ Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

¥ Lu 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

BTW: Where do you draw the line betw need and want? Is everything you have in your life now merely needs?

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Then how come God sometimes says no? If we always got what we wanted then ALL our prayers should be answered. Maybe the things we do have are both what we want and what God wants us to have (ie, what we need).

Okay I apologise if I had put words in your mouth, but I got that impression from your post.

"Then how come God sometimes says no? If we always got what we wanted then ALL our prayers should be answered. Maybe the things we do have are both what we want and what God wants us to have (ie, what we need)."

Let us first establish whether God ONLY gives us what we need, and not what we want/desire as well. This is a belief of many Christians who are against prosperity. They say that its wrong to think that God will go beyond "needs" level, and that wants are somehow wrong and sinful. But I have shown from the many scriptures posted earlier that God goes beyond our expectations! For eg, in my church, a couple who in the natural were told by doctors they could not conceive were blessed with twins! Again, look at Abraham and are you telling me he was only living on "needs" level. No the Bible says he was "VERY MATERIALLY RICH" and that it was God who blessed Abraham.

Now, whether God answers prayer or not is another topic altogether. I know for sure that as long as we ask according to his will, and in faith, he answers. This is scriptural. If it 'aint happening', then it is man who is missing it somewhere, not God.

Also, why would Jesus tell us "Whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray, BELIEVE THAT YE RECEIVE THEM [at the time you are praying]"?? if he was going to say "no" half the time?

Now is prosperity according to His will? Certainly, for it is part and parcel of redemption. But God does not prosper us so that we can sit back and party away. He prospers becos he loves us and likes to bless. He also prospers us so that we can bless others and finance the spread of the gospel -- tons of money are needed to send missionaries, print Bibles, build churches, buy medicine for the sick, build shelters, get air-time on secular networks, pay for the rent of halls...etc.

Finally, do earthly parents only give their kids what they "need" all the time, and no more? Dont they also like to surprise their kids every now and then with something the kid wants? esp at Christmas time? How much more our Daddy God!

So i hope you can at least see now from scipture that our God who is more than enough (one of his names is God Almighty or El Shaddai) certainly goes beyond 'needs' level.

Oh and when I said God gives us what we need, not always what we want I was refering to circumstances, not really material possessions.

I mean, no one wants bad things to happen to them, but maybe we need them to happen to get us right with God, or to bring us to a better place (spiritually).  Bad things can happen to us for a good reason.

Originally posted by paulewog
Oh and one quick short thing.

I didn't mean praying to Jesus or something. I meant people claiming they physically SAW Him.... had a little talk with Him face to face.

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Make that two quick short things. Here's the 1st Peter passage.

Sorry, I had the wrong book. SECOND Peter. My Pastor has been preaching throguh 1st and 2nd Peter lately, and I got confused and thought this passage was at the end of 1st peter, nto the beginning of 2nd.

Anyway, it's 2nd Peter 1:17-21.

Your translation of verse 19 might read "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed" or something like that. That's a bad translation

The KJV has the correct translation, hehe. [literal] Greek word order says, "And we ahev a more sure the prophetic word."

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Hey no sweat Paulewog, could use a break meself.

Hm, looked up one commentary and it's taken the meaning to be "a prophetic word made more sure." The NASB confirms this, being of the most literal bible translations. The context is that Peter is calling all christians to pursue godliness, to make their calling and election sure. Peter realises his time on earth is short and want the church to keep remembering the gospel and what they have been taught.

He iterates that the apostle's testimony of Jesus' power and coming is not a clever story but something they saw with their own eyes. The baptism voice, the transfiguration were evidence of it.

From v19 on he's referring to scripture - that the words of the prophets in scripture were made more sure (confirmed if you will) by their eyewitness accounts, just like a light shining in a dark place. In other words the eyewitness testimony of the apostles brought the words of the prophets to light and people understood that the prophecies were referring to Jesus.

This serves to show that the scriptures were not man-made stories but prophecies from God inspired by the Holy Spirit.

blessings,

Originally posted by paulewog
rapturefish, I'll respond to your post hopefully later today I've been extremely busy (yesterday I was gone from 8am to 6pm ).

But I wanted to point out something...

All in the old testament, there is extremely little about demon possession, and NOTHING about a specific instance of a person being demon possessed. Then we have the New Testament around the time of Jesus - lots of demon possessions.

Then we go into the epistles. Nothing at all about demon possession.

And then we come to revalation, in which there is a lot of demon activity once again.

Is it just by accident that the epistles of Paul, Peter, and John don't mention demon possession?

If it's such a big thing, you'd think it'd be talked about.

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[All quotes from NASB]

In the Old testament, ref.'s to "demon":

Mt 8:16 - Show Context
When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill.

Mt 8:28 - Show Context
When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. {They were} so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way.

Mt 9:32 - Show Context
As they were going out, a mute, demon-possessed man was brought to Him.

Mt 9:33 - Show Context
After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, {and were} saying, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."
Mt 11:18 - Show Context
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
Mt 12:22 - Show Context
Then a demon-possessed man {who was} blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.

Mt 15:22 - Show Context
And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and {began} to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

Mt 17:18 - Show Context
And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.

Mr 1:32 - Show Context
When evening came, after the sun had set, they {began} bringing to Him all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed.

Mr 5:15 - Show Context
They *came to Jesus and *observed the man who had been demon-possessed sitting down, clothed and in his right mind, the very man who had had the "legion"; and they became frightened.
Mr 5:16 - Show Context
Those who had seen it described to them how it had happened to the demon-possessed man, and {all} about the swine.

Mr 5:18 - Show Context
As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was imploring Him that he might accompany Him.

Mr 7:26 - Show Context
Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.

Mr 7:29 - Show Context
And He said to her, "Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter."
Mr 7:30 - Show Context
And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

Lu 4:33 - Show Context
In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice,

Lu 4:35 - Show Context
But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst {of the people,} he came out of him without doing him any harm.

Lu 7:33 - Show Context
"For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'
Lu 8:29 - Show Context
For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and {yet} he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.

Lu 8:36 - Show Context
Those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well.

In the Old testament, ref.'s to "evil spirit":

Jud 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

1Sa 16:14
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

1Sa 16:15
Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you.

1Sa 16:16
"Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play {the harp} with his hand, and you will be well."

1Sa 16:23
So it came about whenever the {evil} spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play {it} with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.

1Sa 18:10
Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing {the harp} with his hand, as usual; and a spear {was} in Saul's hand.

1Sa 19:9
Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing {the harp} with {his} hand.

In the New Testament, ref.'s to "evil spirit":

Ac 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"

Ac 19:16
And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Well... yes, there seem to be a conspicuous concentration of cases of demons or possession mentioned in the Gospels and Acts. And few references elsewhere. What does this tell us though? Perhaps Jesus and the Apostles had a greater offensive effect on demons?

I'm not sure you can conclude that deliverance of people from demons has ceased as a gift or possibility though, though it may seem to be. The case of Saul and of Abimelech, whilst not taking up a great deal of OT scripture space, do mention evil spirits taking up residence in people. It's valid enough.

Another point is that the pharisees and Jesus both used the terms equivalent of "demon-possessed" or "has a demon" without any seeming question as to what it meant. So even to the teachers of the law it was not a new concept.

Mind you, it is curious though and I thank you for mentioning it. I'll chew on that one for a while...

Chewing, hmm...

Actually when you break it down into separate incidents, the number of incidents that occur aren't quite so many but still substantial. It does mention many who were demon-possessed in this Matthew passage but not the Mark one(Mt.8:16, Mk.1:32); there is Legion(Mt.8:28, Mk.5:15-16,18, Lk.8:29,36); a mute guy(9:32-33); a blind & mute guy(Mt.12:22); a canaanite's daughter(Mk.15:22) and a Syrophoenician's daughter(same one? Mk.7:26,29-30); a boy(Mt.17:18) and in the synagogue one guy(Lk.4:33). Evil Spirits are mentioned in Acts 19:15,16. The ref's in Mt.11:18 & lk.7:33 refer to the Pharisees accusing John of having a demon.

About six incidents are in Matthew, which one or two of which are also in Mark, and one of which is also in Luke, and Luke has one account that is not in Matthew, while none exist in John. What does this tell us? I think it does show that you can't go on the frequency of mentions of demon-possession as an accurate guide as to how many people were demon-possessed. But you do have the mention of many in Mt.8:16.

Will chew some more...

blessings,

Originally posted by paulewog
Actually, no, I think rather that the demons work without showing themselves when possible.

But when Christ came around, they got freaked out and couldn't help themselves. They weren't ATTACKING Jesus when they cried out to Him as He walked by.

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If I accept that for argument's sake, then that would only mean that it was possible that people were demon-possessed in OT times too only people wouldn't know it was the case. In other words, silence would mean you can neither prove or disprove the existence of demon-possession.

That thing about Saul - it doesn't necessarily mean he was demon possessed.

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Can you explain that one? A person can have an evil spirit enter him but not be demon-possessed?

And the top passages, I think you meant New Testament, not Old

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AUGH! YOU'RE RIGHT! [*rapturefish chokes on his beef jerky whilst chewing*] he he