Case for Not Marrying, part 2, no flames

[hijklmnop]

McScribe in his last paragraph nailed it.

The other thing is watch threads here and you'll see some women, after reading anothers complaints, saying Hey, you do realize you are being abused right.
That it once implied physical abuse is exactly the point, therefore it needs to be properly labeled. Because there exists many types of abuse, why not add the adjective before it.

Nothing wrong with that IMO, except that people like you will read the term "verbal abuse" or "emotional abuse" or "financial abuse" and apparently think much less of the effects of that on someone's psyche and the importance in dealing with it strongly and urgently than "physical abuse."

For the person claiming mental abuse is worse than physcal...

Who is that person Cons? Is it me? Because actually, I didn't say that is true across the board. What I said is that some people will state their truth, which is that for them, the mental/verbal/emotional or whatever kind of abuse WAS worse for them than the physical abuse. Many would say that based on THEIR experience, they would rather take a hit than take the kind of verbal and emotional degradation they endured day after day. Others would say the other way around, as you would, it seems. If the person you're referring to is the poster who WAS abused emotionally and said that was the worst...who are you to question the effect those experiences had on her life? It's presumptuous. Just because in YOUR opinion one type of abuse is the worst doesn't mean everyone must agree with you.

so.....are you saying that someone being beaten is not being also mentally abused? That the abuser isnt tormenting them, yelling and screaming at them, belittling them....or they person just silently walks up and hits them and walks away.....come on...that strains credibility.

No one said that.

When I witnessed the abuse I saw, broken bones and blood and ambulances and police and the full deal.....let me tell you there was deep psychological damage, its present to this day in my mother some 40 years later. I often ask myself, when she was being pummeled if someone could stop time and say "uh, miss, if you had the chance to change this to verbal abuse would you?"......get the point?

Like I said before...SOME people found the words and the emotional mistreatment more harmful to their spirit than physical abuse. You can argue that they're wrong till you're blue in the face but that's just disrespectful IMO. I'm not arguing with you on what you feel is most traumatic, saying it shouldn't be, but I think it's rude for you to push your beliefs onto everyone else and make the kind of blanket statements you are making.

The problem today is simple in a lot of cases. An argument starts, maybe its one of those ones that couples have all the time....they never agree and always cover the same ground....we all know this dynamic.....the man gets frustrated and yells.....the women cries.....argument over.....after that scenario occurs enough times, she says she is being abused. Sorry, I do not agree. And its definately possible that some people just yell and rant and rave totally out of the blue.....but that indeed is an equal opportunity thing gender wise.....yet to live life today every or nearly every women in a divorce adds that she was abused. It is just not credibile that that many people are unilaterally abused, and not just in bilateral duysfunction....bad yes....but not something to hand ABUSER on a man over.

Really? I'd love to see a stat on that, because it's not true. It also is contradictory to previous claims I've seen made on this board by you or your buddies that most divorces nowadays are NOT due to extreme things like abuse, but to "minor" things like financial problems, not being happy anymore, irreconcilable differences, whatever...that divorce due to abuse is rare. And anyways, if both parties are abusive at some point in the marriage...does one cancel the other out? It's like abuse now only counts if the abuse victim never fights back in any way. If he/she does, well then it's "bilateral dysfunction." I don't buy it. Either you have abused your spouse or you have not. Your spouse's reaction doesn't negate the gravity of the action in question. The behaviour must be dealt with for what it is without casting responsibility for it on the other or making comparisons with the other.

The topic is not possible to discuss anyway because once someone is convinced, usually by another woman, that they are being abused.....thats it....they are....period. The mere fact that there are lists like in the thread below that say "how to recognize abuse" should cause people to see that its like recruitment. Talk to any family lawyer and ask if abuse is "abused" in the legal system.....they will tell you straight up, it is.

The people that get the angriest are those who say they were abused.

Recruitment? It's AWARENESS. There are so many people in denial, putting up with serious mistreatment who cannot face the fact that what is being done to them is actually ABUSE. That is important because this kind of behaviour will not stop as long as people like you continue to minimize it and in doing so, enable it. It should be called out for what it is so it is dealt with SERIOUSLY so it can STOP. One of the best things that ever happened to me and my h was him being told unequivocally that he was being abusive. He didn't like hearing that (understatement of the century) because he associated "abuse" as you do with the severe physical abuse his father had inflicted on his mother...but guess what...that didn't mean his behaviour WASN'T abusive. Just because it wasn't the SAME doesn't it wasn't ALSO abuse and doesn't mean the effects weren't incredibly emotionally and spiritually detrimental. And until he digested that for the truth it was, it didn't stop. Once he DID, he got help and CHANGED. I will never minimize the importance of recognize abuse because not doing so enables it to continue. This is my truth: the brainwashing, spiritual manipulation and emotional degradation affected me FAR MORE negatively, and in far deeper and longer-lasting ways than the physical abuse did. And guess what: I also had to take responsibility for the verbal and emotional abuse that I inflicted upon him at times. ME understanding that I was being abusive as well at times was humiliating, but once I understood and accepted it for what it was, I was able to take it seriously enough to change it for once and for all...no matter WHAT he was doing.

But lets not try the tactic of telling me I dont know how it is......I betcha I know how it is better than vast majority of people here. And it really really disturbs me that someone getting yelled at can use the exact same word to describe what put my mother in the hospital with a punctured lung.....sorry, thats just flat morally bankrupt to do that.

No one's trying that tactic. But as I said before, you don't know what others on this board have been through too. It's not a contest. Just respect the fact that many others have been through abuse too (sad, but true) so you shouldn't assume that you know BEST because you've seen what you believe is the worst. That's humility. Respecting other people's experiences as being just as valuable and important and true to them as yours is to you. I'm not minimizing your experiences, but you are in fact minimizing others'. That is what I'm objecting to.

 

[mattyb1982]

I vote to talk about some other bullet points, I have a feeling this thread will get locked down like mine did.

 

[McScribe]

Agreed. I don't think anyone has said anything against those who actually are abused, emotionally or physically, so let's drop it. That should either be discussed in a separate thread or elsewhere altogether. This thread is about whether there is any point in marrying or not.

It's such a flip of the coin, it's hard to advocate. Those who married well to be honest often seem lucky. I don't mean that they don't work hard at their marriages, I mean that they're like people who successfully invested in a difficult market.

 

[brinny]

Agreed. I don't think anyone has said anything against those who actually are abused, emotionally or physically, so let's drop it. That should either be discussed in a separate thread or elsewhere altogether. This thread is about whether there is any point in marrying or not.

It's such a flip of the coin, it's hard to advocate. Those who married well to be honest often seem lucky. I don't mean that they don't work hard at their marriages, I mean that they're like people who successfully invested in a difficult market.

The issue of abuse was brought up by the OP. I see no harm in clarifying abuse and what it is. It certainly has a bearing on why one might choose to never ever get married again.

 

[Conservativation]

Yep, I tied it all into my OP

 

[Conservativation]

Nothing wrong with that IMO, except that people like you will read the term "verbal abuse" or "emotional abuse" or "financial abuse" and apparently think much less of the effects of that on someone's psyche and the importance in dealing with it strongly and urgently than "physical abuse."



Who is that person Cons? Is it me? Because actually, I didn't say that is true across the board. What I said is that some people will state their truth, which is that for them, the mental/verbal/emotional or whatever kind of abuse WAS worse for them than the physical abuse. Many would say that based on THEIR experience, they would rather take a hit than take the kind of verbal and emotional degradation they endured day after day. Others would say the other way around, as you would, it seems. If the person you're referring to is the poster who WAS abused emotionally and said that was the worst...who are you to question the effect those experiences had on her life? It's presumptuous. Just because in YOUR opinion one type of abuse is the worst doesn't mean everyone must agree with you.



No one said that.



Like I said before...SOME people found the words and the emotional mistreatment more harmful to their spirit than physical abuse. You can argue that they're wrong till you're blue in the face but that's just disrespectful IMO. I'm not arguing with you on what you feel is most traumatic, saying it shouldn't be, but I think it's rude for you to push your beliefs onto everyone else and make the kind of blanket statements you are making.



Really? I'd love to see a stat on that, because it's not true. It also is contradictory to previous claims I've seen made on this board by you or your buddies that most divorces nowadays are NOT due to extreme things like abuse, but to "minor" things like financial problems, not being happy anymore, irreconcilable differences, whatever...that divorce due to abuse is rare. And anyways, if both parties are abusive at some point in the marriage...does one cancel the other out? It's like abuse now only counts if the abuse victim never fights back in any way. If he/she does, well then it's "bilateral dysfunction." I don't buy it. Either you have abused your spouse or you have not. Your spouse's reaction doesn't negate the gravity of the action in question. The behaviour must be dealt with for what it is without casting responsibility for it on the other or making comparisons with the other.



Recruitment? It's AWARENESS. There are so many people in denial, putting up with serious mistreatment who cannot face the fact that what is being done to them is actually ABUSE. That is important because this kind of behaviour will not stop as long as people like you continue to minimize it and in doing so, enable it. It should be called out for what it is so it is dealt with SERIOUSLY so it can STOP. One of the best things that ever happened to me and my h was him being told unequivocally that he was being abusive. He didn't like hearing that (understatement of the century) because he associated "abuse" as you do with the severe physical abuse his father had inflicted on his mother...but guess what...that didn't mean his behaviour WASN'T abusive. Just because it wasn't the SAME doesn't it wasn't ALSO abuse and doesn't mean the effects weren't incredibly emotionally and spiritually detrimental. And until he digested that for the truth it was, it didn't stop. Once he DID, he got help and CHANGED. I will never minimize the importance of recognize abuse because not doing so enables it to continue. This is my truth: the brainwashing, spiritual manipulation and emotional degradation affected me FAR MORE negatively, and in far deeper and longer-lasting ways than the physical abuse did. And guess what: I also had to take responsibility for the verbal and emotional abuse that I inflicted upon him at times. ME understanding that I was being abusive as well at times was humiliating, but once I understood and accepted it for what it was, I was able to take it seriously enough to change it for once and for all...no matter WHAT he was doing.



No one's trying that tactic. But as I said before, you don't know what others on this board have been through too. It's not a contest. Just respect the fact that many others have been through abuse too (sad, but true) so you shouldn't assume that you know BEST because you've seen what you believe is the worst. That's humility. Respecting other people's experiences as being just as valuable and important and true to them as yours is to you. I'm not minimizing your experiences, but you are in fact minimizing others'. That is what I'm objecting to.

Not sure who your post is responding to, its so badly off base of anything I said I wont spend time on it unless I have some extra time

 

[GloryBe!]

Dreamer....

THANK YOU!!!

And one of the main reasons why emotional abuse sucks so badly, is because of the attitudes of others (which mirror the attitude of a particular poster on here )...that emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical abuse and, therefore, either didn't happen, or just isn't as worthy of sympathy or support for the emotionally abused. Since I didn't suffer any black eyes, stitches, or hospital stays, even my PARENTS wouldn't believe me! That, to me, is an effect of the abuse that was definitely worse than the physical would have been. I remember thinking at the time that I just should have let him continue... That maybe I'd get some support in light of a HOSPITAL BILL . Thankfully, tho, I have more self worth than that.

Glory be!

 

[sk8Joyful]

Just as all women have the wiles to become manipulative *slots*,
all men have the potential to become overbearing jerks.
Marriage is an extreme risk nowadays for both sexes.
Even though my marriage isn't awful at all, I still live with the resolve
that I (if forced into such a situation ) would probably not ever Date/marry again.

Not ever ventured in this section before, but unfortunately (thru naivete) was forced to gain horrendous experience.
I was ridiculed, slapped, belittled, joints dislocated, threatened with my life, & several murder attempts.
(& the church that married us? - said until I am perfect,
I have no right to seek Support, & I am to endure... )

I endured, until our daughter was also abused; & THAT
was where I drew the line, in my Mothering-instincts.
In divorcing, the church told me I sinned; not him.
So I left not only him, the marriage, the church, but most of humanity.

Don't ask me what I'm doing here, posting today, - for TODAY is my Birthday

 

[McScribe]

Sticking to the facts, I cite the 2/3 filed by women. The point there isnt what the snarky reply "so I suppose the boys were doing nothing" suggests. The point there is that the number is high enough to suggest looking into the drivers and holding both genders accountable, and by that I dont mean in one given divorce making both people equally accountable, that is sophistry depending on who says it, but rather in the big picture, societies perception is exactly opposite the reality, and it needs to be said that women are causing a bunch of divorces too, so people dont react "what did HE do" when they hear of one.

DV stats now show thats not reliable anymore

Abuse, as a term, has been so ill defined its not a usable term anymore

The OP of the other thread laid out a very good question, he listed some conditions under which someone would choose to marry or not. If you read Harleys site his observations bear out what Im going to say here.....more men would accpt those conditions than women. More, the typical reaction is that thats because men want to sin with impunity and stay married, to which we cycle right back up to the 2/3 number showing that that is just not the case.

There is a set of facts that are so rock solid it should be criminal the way the disinformation is allowed to stand

This is the context in which abuse was mentioned.

Now: defining it? Those who have mentioned it here have definitely experienced abuse. They may have experienced denial as well--for me, for my part, it was years before my family even recognized any abuse for me. That is painful and very confusing, and I understand. I think it needs to be said though that's not what is being talked about. In this context here where it is relevant it is about how it is and is not defined carefully enough to explain how a relationship should remain or dissolve.

Abuse is only one part of the OP, and to be honest not the most important part. 2/3 filing for divorce by women is not the most important part either. It is that generally marriage is such a roll of the dice in our society. Is it worth even bothering with?

 

[Conservativation]

Dreamer....

THANK YOU!!!

And one of the main reasons why emotional abuse sucks so badly, is because of the attitudes of others (which mirror the attitude of a particular poster on here )...that emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical abuse and, therefore, either didn't happen, or just isn't as worthy of sympathy or support for the emotionally abused. Since I didn't suffer any black eyes, stitches, or hospital stays, even my PARENTS wouldn't believe me! That, to me, is an effect of the abuse that was definitely worse than the physical would have been. I remember thinking at the time that I just should have let him continue... That maybe I'd get some support in light of a HOSPITAL BILL . Thankfully, tho, I have more self worth than that.

Glory be!

I see, that some one didnt believe you makes it worse. Ok, I guess, though there are physically abused folks with no marks that have that too.

The thing is, and one thing aboyt dreamers post I will address is where she said that people are "made aware"....not recruited. I still dont get it, if someone doesnt know that something bad is happening.....then it isnt happening. That its called abuse or called Fred is a secondary matter. Either they are suffering, or they arent. To have to tell someone hey, by the way, you are suffering......is silly

 

[brinny]

I see, that some one didnt believe you makes it worse. Ok, I guess, though there are physically abused folks with no marks that have that too.

The thing is, and one thing aboyt dreamers post I will address is where she said that people are "made aware"....not recruited. I still dont get it, if someone doesnt know that something bad is happening.....then it isnt happening. That its called abuse or called Fred is a secondary matter. Either they are suffering, or they arent. To have to tell someone hey, by the way, you are suffering......is silly

Sometimes it's necessary, my brother. My mom never had counseling. She was isolated, shut down. If she would've had counseling it might have prevented all us children from being separated and placed in various foster homes.

 

[Conservativation]

Sometimes it's necessary, my brother. My mom never had counseling. She was isolated, shut down. If she would've had counseling it might have prevented all us children from being separated and placed in various foster homes.

I think you are missing my point, and I say that with respect because I think you will get what Im saying if I explain it better.

Im not suggesting someone in a bad situation not be told they could use some help. And if your mom was beaten well yeah.....they could use some intervention.

What Im talking about is the idea that someone writes or tells another that they argue and fight and their husband yells or he insults them or whatever, he is uncommunicative....if women spoke into that saying hey, that sounds dysfunctional, you are both need some help thats not good, no issues.
But instead they come with checklists and say "do you realize you are being abused"

Tell me whats more TRULY helpful and what shows REAL concern, trying to tell her that she is in a bad situation and the couple could use some help or simply getting the label abuse hung on it?

There is power in the word. See the reactions to my points, how DARE anyone say the things Im saying, at the mere mention of the work we are to dam the torpedoes and go full stop into condemnation of the abusER are assistance to the abusEE.

In my mind true concern would manifest in the efforts to help, not to convince someone of one particular nomenclature.

I think lots of folks if given the choice in saying

My husband mistreats me

or

my husband abuses me

will be pressed into the second one because it removes the ability for anyone to drill into it and see whats happening and if there is any bilateral dysfunction.....I say this because recent data shows that what used to be called unilateral abuse is nearly universally bilateral, and no one deserves therefore to be labeled abusive and all the repercussions that go with it if they are actually just in a high conflict marriage where yelling occurs.

the idea that some man out of the blue just starts screaming and yelling isnt absurd....it happens to be sure.....BUT....the idea that that is the norm is truly absurd.

 

[brinny]

I think you are missing my point, and I say that with respect because I think you will get what Im saying if I explain it better.

Im not suggesting someone in a bad situation not be told they could use some help. And if your mom was beaten well yeah.....they could use some intervention.

What Im talking about is the idea that someone writes or tells another that they argue and fight and their husband yells or he insults them or whatever, he is uncommunicative....if women spoke into that saying hey, that sounds dysfunctional, you are both need some help thats not good, no issues.
But instead they come with checklists and say "do you realize you are being abused"

Tell me whats more TRULY helpful and what shows REAL concern, trying to tell her that she is in a bad situation and the couple could use some help or simply getting the label abuse hung on it?

There is power in the word. See the reactions to my points, how DARE anyone say the things Im saying, at the mere mention of the work we are to dam the torpedoes and go full stop into condemnation of the abusER are assistance to the abusEE.

In my mind true concern would manifest in the efforts to help, not to convince someone of one particular nomenclature.

I think lots of folks if given the choice in saying

My husband mistreats me

or

my husband abuses me

will be pressed into the second one because it removes the ability for anyone to drill into it and see whats happening and if there is any bilateral dysfunction.....I say this because recent data shows that what used to be called unilateral abuse is nearly universally bilateral, and no one deserves therefore to be labeled abusive and all the repercussions that go with it if they are actually just in a high conflict marriage where yelling occurs.

the idea that some man out of the blue just starts screaming and yelling isnt absurd....it happens to be sure.....BUT....the idea that that is the norm is truly absurd.

If someone has an "agenda" and they manipulate someone because they have an "agenda", yes, that is dishonest and it's wrong. There are differences. If someone wants to vent and just get it off their chest, but there are no underlying hurtful patterns, and it's simply venting, well that's all it is. If however, the venting is just the tip of the iceberg and there are some horrific glimpses of damage routinely being done to speaker and/or children, it cannot just be left there on the floor, and/or ignored.

Silence kills. Insidiously.

 

[hijklmnop]

I see, that some one didnt believe you makes it worse. Ok, I guess, though there are physically abused folks with no marks that have that too.

The thing is, and one thing aboyt dreamers post I will address is where she said that people are "made aware"....not recruited. I still dont get it, if someone doesnt know that something bad is happening.....then it isnt happening. That its called abuse or called Fred is a secondary matter. Either they are suffering, or they arent. To have to tell someone hey, by the way, you are suffering......is silly

I wholeheartedly disagree. Just because someone isnt aware that something thats happening to them is wrong and abusive doesnt mean its not so at all! That is some seriously flawed logic. We need to teach all adults what kind of behaviour constitutes abuse for the same reasons we need to teach children what kind of treatment is and isnt appropriate (think sexual abuse). Thats like saying that if someone molests a child and they dont object or fight back because they dont lnow that they can and should because they havent been taught that its wrong then oh well. Ignorance is no excuse. Victims should know what cOnstitutes abuse so they know where to draw the line and when to seek help and abusers need to know when their behaviour is abusive so they take it seriously enouh to do whatever it takes to stop and change. Minimization and ignorance do nobody any good whether theyre a victim or a perpretator or both.

 

[JaneFW]

There is a definite case for not marrying. If I had my time again, I would have gone to a sperm donor to have my child, choosing specifically according to the attributes I would like my child most to have - athleticism, musical ability etc. I would then have raised that child alone and maintained my emotional health, income and general well being, and also that of my child. In my personal experience, marriage is a well baited trap, and it's one I would never have stepped into if I could have my "do over".

 

[Camalinda]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Just because someone isnt aware that something thats happening to them is wrong and abusive doesnt mean its not so at all! That is some seriously flawed logic. We need to teach all adults what kind of behaviour constitutes abuse for the same reasons we need to teach children what kind of treatment is and isnt appropriate (think sexual abuse). Thats like saying that if someone molests a child and they dont object or fight back because they dont lnow that they can and should because they havent been taught that its wrong then oh well. Ignorance is no excuse. Victims should know what cOnstitutes abuse so they know where to draw the line and when to seek help and abusers need to know when their behaviour is abusive so they take it seriously enouh to do whatever it takes to stop and change. Minimization and ignorance do nobody any good whether theyre a victim or a perpretator or both.

Well said and very true.

How many people go to the doctor feeling well and then find out they have cancer? Or some other disease? Hmmm... so, do they not really have a medical issue because THEY didn't know they were sick and the doctor had to tell them??

I'm sure there are men and women both who manipulate and coerce and use the system to cry ABUSE when it's not warranted. However, there are probably 5 more people for each one of those who are being abused and aren't saying anything. And when someone DOES give forth a glimpse of their abuse, it's almost always just the tip of the iceberg. We can never judge someone just by what they say about their abuse. Most people who are being abused have been convinced that "it's not that bad" or "if I could just get my act together, he wouldn't do this to me" etc.

A good read re: abusive men (not picking on men here, it's just only that this particular book only deals with men) is Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Excellent and eye-opening book.

 

[JaneFW]

I'm sure there are men and women both who manipulate and coerce and use the system to cry ABUSE when it's not warranted. However, there are probably 5 more people for each one of those who are being abused and aren't saying anything. And when someone DOES give forth a glimpse of their abuse, it's almost always just the tip of the iceberg. We can never judge someone just by what they say about their abuse. Most people who are being abused have been convinced that "it's not that bad" or "if I could just get my act together, he wouldn't do this to me" etc.

I didn't know there was an abuse debate going on, but of course all of what you have said is true. I have personally known people who were abused - all female. Including my mother, myself, a couple of wives of my ex-husband's friends, some other women I met online at forums who were sexually abused as children by male family members, and another friend who was abused by her husband for many years. I haven't met anyone who ever said "nah, I made it all up". These may be just a handful of personal stories, but I don't see any statistics about fake abuse claims either. What is true most often is that the real figure for abuse does not emerge because women are too ashamed, or are so brainwashed that even years later they believe it is their fault. A lot is not reported. Mine never was. My mother's never was. It just existed.

 

[Romanseight2005]

I didn't know there was an abuse debate going on, but of course all of what you have said is true. I have personally known people who were abused - all female. Including my mother, myself, a couple of wives of my ex-husband's friends, some other women I met online at forums who were sexually abused as children by male family members, and another friend who was abused by her husband for many years. I haven't met anyone who ever said "nah, I made it all up". These may be just a handful of personal stories, but I don't see any statistics about fake abuse claims either. What is true most often is that the real figure for abuse does not emerge because women are too ashamed, or are so brainwashed that even years later they believe it is their fault. A lot is not reported. Mine never was. My mother's never was. It just existed.

In terms of sexual abuse, I am amazed at the number of women who were sexually abused as children, and those are just the ones who speak up.In fact, my hasband was shocked to hear that I hadn't been. Not because of any particular behavior on my part mind you, but because every woman he had ever dated, had been sexually abused as a child. Furthermore, almost every woman I know now, was sexually abused as a child.

 

[JaneFW]

In terms of sexual abuse, I am amazed at the number of women who were sexually abused as children, and those are just the ones who speak up.In fact, my hasband was shocked to hear that I hadn't been. Not because of any particular behavior on my part mind you, but because every woman he had ever dated, had been sexually abused as a child. Furthermore, almost every woman I know now, was sexually abused as a child.

It's a sad situation. I once was involved in a thread on a woman's forum where women were encouraged to speak up in that safe environment. Only perhaps 10% of women had not been sexually abused in some manner but the others had suffered everything from outright rape to inappropriate and unwelcome "touching", which is sexual abuse nonetheless and this usually was about older men groping and/or talking in a sexual manner to girls in their early teens. I was stunned how many women had had this happen - it was the dad's of their friends, or an "uncle" (whether blood relative or not), or a friend of the family. Not strangers so much. Not many women had been assaulted by strangers. Sad but true. (Sad but true either way of course.)

 

[Conservativation]

Closing Thread

Sexually abused as children......mods....where are you.....thats so totally emotionally manipulative and off topic it is blatantly wrong to say

But since Im closing the thread....to be honest Im amazed at the women who were sexually abused as children too, in fact I think every women Ive ever met was, and Im serious in that......so......either something is wrong in OZ, or, there are pretty much all men running around abusing children sexually.

If I take the number of women I know who say they were sexually abused, and I try to see that in terms of the number of young girls I know, then statisticlly the majority of the fathers I know, heck maybe even me, are sexual abusers