Case for Not Marrying, part 2, no flames

[Conservativation]

Can we continue? Its a real topic and if the facts are the facts lets keep talking about them

 

[Conservativation]

Sticking to the facts, I cite the 2/3 filed by women. The point there isnt what the snarky reply "so I suppose the boys were doing nothing" suggests. The point there is that the number is high enough to suggest looking into the drivers and holding both genders accountable, and by that I dont mean in one given divorce making both people equally accountable, that is sophistry depending on who says it, but rather in the big picture, societies perception is exactly opposite the reality, and it needs to be said that women are causing a bunch of divorces too, so people dont react "what did HE do" when they hear of one.

DV stats now show thats not reliable anymore

Abuse, as a term, has been so ill defined its not a usable term anymore

The OP of the other thread laid out a very good question, he listed some conditions under which someone would choose to marry or not. If you read Harleys site his observations bear out what Im going to say here.....more men would accpt those conditions than women. More, the typical reaction is that thats because men want to sin with impunity and stay married, to which we cycle right back up to the 2/3 number showing that that is just not the case.

There is a set of facts that are so rock solid it should be criminal the way the disinformation is allowed to stand

 

[McScribe]

The operative phrase is 'hold both genders accountable'. There are obviously marriages in which one party is guilty mostly of being a doormat or being virtuous but ignoring the troubled parts of the marriage coming from the other party. There are obviously marriages in which adultery has taken place or whatever. So disclaimer done.

The above posts are talking about the average kind of marriage, in which there is no particular good or bad party--just people who may have misunderstandings, confusion, their own issues that muddy the waters of communication.

 

[Camalinda]

Abuse, as a term, has been so ill defined its not a usable term anymore

What is your basis for this statement? Where do you literally see the term 'abuse' being so ill-defined that it is not a usable term anymore? I am seriously curious. Are there statistics? Is this your own feeling or experience in life, that some women you know have thrown around the term 'abuse'?

I haven't seen it, myself. When I hear the term 'abuse', I think of someone being under extreme mental, physical or emotional duress caused by another. I take it very seriously.

I'd like to learn if there really is any concrete evidence to your statement or if it is your own personal experience, or what you have heard, etc.

 

[McScribe]

It's floated around rather casually by some people as way to talk about the distress one personally experiences, regardless of degree, as a basis for ending relationships. He doesn't mean that abuse isn't abuse. He means that when it is talked about as a basis for divorce that it has too many meanings, not just the one you described above.

 

[hijklmnop]

I haven't seen it being floated around casually. I do however, see that sometimes when people describe or define abuse as they or others have experienced it, others take issue with it in that they think whatever it was wasn't severe enough in their opinion to warrant that definition. I actually find it incredibly insensitive and dismissive of someone else's experiences.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I haven't seen it being floated around casually. I do however, see that sometimes when people describe or define abuse as they or others have experienced it, others take issue with it in that they think whatever it was wasn't severe enough in their opinion to warrant that definition. I actually find it incredibly insensitive and dismissive of someone else's experiences.

I agree. To take someones subjective experience at anything other than face value just isn't right. It is important that we take what anyone says at face value so we can make supportive comments to them regardless of whatever the other side of the story may be. Its just the Christian thing to do. Jumping to conclusions based on an incomplete understanding of the situation is probably what Jesus would do and we should do likewise.

 

[McScribe]

With all due respect, that is not what is being talked about. What is being talked about is the general concept.

 

[Conservativation]

Good one AL

And, to replay the broken record, for every 10 people who say abuse, less than half have ever been physically touched, they call emotional abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, and I just do not buy it, thats my opinion and I stay with it.
Otherwise we are doing what AL parodies brilliantly, every single time someone says the word, we jump through hoops of sympathy....well, not me, not anymore, not until I can trust the meanings of words again....someday.....I hope.

I know all the arguments about mental abuse being worse that scars are hidden etc etc.....and sorry except in extreme things like threats of life, kidnapping and holding prisoner, nope I do not agree that its as bad as physical abuse and never will.

Folks always avoid this point.....how can you even have physical abuse that has no mental or verbal element to it? You cant.....so what folks are saying therefore is that verbal/mental abuse is worse than physical verbal mental combined. Thats nonsense and everyone knows it.

 

[Camalinda]

Statistics? Studies? How do you back up your very concrete statements re: abuse? Sounds pretty "subjective" to me.

 

[Conservativation]

Ive posted them before, and you know what....I could show videos of every human interaction for 100 years leaving nothing to guess work, and still most of you would find a way to disagree.
Thats why I dutifully added the opinions are mine, the facts however are easy to figure out. If 6 of 10 abuse claims were physical based, then on your street if you have 20 houses, inside 6 or more you have physical violence against women occurring. That is quite easy to figure out how I arrived at that if you think about it.
Anyway to the OP again, another reason not to marry is the corruption of the word abuse, and its incorporation even in the asset split in divorce, for example one state says "the allegation of verbal abuse" is material in skewing from the 50/50 joint property base line. That ought to bother everyone, but, it really only bothers those who are the likely targets of it.

There are tons of data out there about all this....books to read, studies, everything, but they have done nothing to change anything...they tell some of us what we alreay know, and they are ignored by the rest.

The premise of the OP is actually occurring in real time we all know folks are not marrying. Some say "where are all the good men" when they cant find a guy to marry and settle, pointing out the immature guys in moms basement w/ Xbox.....the OP premise has a great deal to do with it.

 

[hijklmnop]

Oh, so it's women's fault that some men are immature because we have persecuted men through marriage and divorce options. Okay. LOL

And I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about what abuse is when you've clearly made your mind up that nothing but a physical beating counts. Facts don't matter, I guess. Men like you scare me.

 

[GloryBe!]

Oh, so it's women's fault that some men are immature because we have persecuted men through marriage and divorce options. Okay. LOL

And I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about what abuse is when you've clearly made your mind up that nothing but a physical beating counts. Facts don't matter, I guess. Men like you scare me.

I agree with you.
I've never actually suffered a real
"Beating ",but mostly because I've walked/ran away before it got that bad. Being held down in my own truck resulting in stress fracture in my arm is still abuse. Having my ex yell at me with his finger in my face is STILL abuse. Manipulation of my family for his benefit against me was ALSO abusive. I don't understand why some people think the only definition of abuse requires an ER visit and stitches, when emotional scars and memories hurt more and last longer.

Glory be!

 

[Tannic]

when emotional scars and memories hurt more and last longer.

Hmmm... wonder if the script was flipped would it be worth the time of knowing that some women talk down men, even those they say they love, on a constant basis would be valid here. It doesn't shock me some say it's not worth their time to discuss this and it's always the case when men bring things up like this. It's sad that these day, IMO, some men are thought to be the problem when their not. It's sad when some female falls into temptation and it's the male's fault because they fell. Flip the script... tell the man to take responsibility for their actions. Flip the scrip... everyone says it's the man's fault. Double Standard IMO.

 

[GloryBe!]

Hmmm... wonder if the script was flipped would it be worth the time of knowing that some women talk down men, even those they say they love, on a constant basis would be valid here. It doesn't shock me some say it's not worth their time to discuss this and it's always the case when men bring things up like this. It's sad that these day, IMO, some men are thought to be the problem when their not. It's sad when some female falls into temptation and it's the male's fault because they fell. Flip the script... tell the man to take responsibility for their actions. Flip the scrip... everyone says it's the man's fault. Double Standard IMO.

I never said I wasn't STUPID for staying with him once I realized who he was. I finally DID get rid of him, tho, but it took pointing a loaded gun at him when he trespassed and being at a place of peace if I needed to shoot him.
It could have been worse... I could have actually said yes to his proposals.
And I agree that females are also capable And often skilled at abusing guys. They can be very good at "do em and dump em ",manipulation to get what they want, using them and their families for anything and everything, lying constantly, etc.

Glory be!

 

[OldGrayMare]

Cons: This is the wall of resistance. This is why half the folks are not spoken to directly in church. Someone raises statistically verifiable unequivocal FACTS....and thats called misogyny. Thats really very very sad, and its a card played one way.
If someone mentioned that X% of pornography is bought or viewed by men...and I dont know the number but its way more men....Id say NOTHING about that being anti-male...why? because its a FACT. Even in legal terms, the defense against libel and slander that is the best is the defense of truth...if the thing is true, its not libel.

Same here, if someone wants to show what he has said that just raw bashing and lacking any facts.....do so. But the facts are exactly what he is stating and how sad is that to be called misogyny.

Its no surprise to see a man objecting because white knight phenom is huge among Christians....more so than non Christians, Christian men are basically to never ever ever offend a woman. Thats why preachers would never give a message that started with "folks I realize this may be hard to believe but women file 2/3 of all divorces, now notice I didn't say women are at fault for 2/3 I said they FILE 2/3, and that is a compelling number which does suggest something, and that something is that men are not overwhelmingly responsible for divorce which is the assumption we have operated under for years even if unspoken, so lets talk today about wives, and marriage, we spend much time telling men how to love wives, so lets go straight at the ladies today and share some hard to hear truths"

You will NEVER hear that direct talk to women....period. One preacher friend told me he didnt do it for the simple reason his wife would object. He also said that his attendance would drop like a rock as women dragged husbands to find a different church and how dare the pastor by a misogynist.

The current imbalance is so settled into conventional wisdom its seen as balance, hence the white knight saying the OP needs balance.

The OP IS BALANCE....and an open mind not fraught with the natural male urge to self efface in an effort top get cyber back pats from women could see it clearly

Cons, I had to go back and read the original thread to make sure I was getting the whole picture. I went thru the OP's posts... OK, some are just bitterness or ignorance IMHO. Would I agree to his original conditions ? Sure. I got married (as opposed to cohabitating) for the legal, financial protections. I am the earner. Having seen it happen to BOTH male & female friends, I was not going to ie co-sign for a vehicle, only to have loving partner decide the love is gone, and the vehicle too, leaving me to pay for it.

Now, 66% of divorce requests filed by women... and your take on this is that therefore women are causing more divorces? C'mon. You're way smarter than that.
Who files doesn't tell you squat about the cause; it only tells you who (perhaps) is unwilling to put up with it any longer.

Everydangone of us is capable of manipulation & dishonesty and every one of us has caused another pain.
"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

Me? I've sinned and been sinned against. I've forgiven and been forgiven. I've been mindful of others and unmindful of others.

off the soapbox & back on my knees.

 

[CarrieAnnC]

One of my dd sadly dated abusive man. This was only until he beat her and her daddy and I see bruises. Then her daddy and 2 brothers pay this man a visit and tell him this is over. My dd play with fire knowing this man have bad background but belive he is reform. But still she did not ask him to hit her. She should have listened to parents and never be alone with him but still she did not ask to be hit. I start to tremble when I think what happen to my dd and how bad it could have be.

Both men and women have reason to use caution but not to be in place of mistrust and bitterness that I see in this forum so often. So much bitterness that "all" woman wicked. This is not so. Women can be just as much disadvantage in taking marriage vows as man because this is end of freedom and now relying on man to be good man he seem to be. I was blessed with good man who never has done me harm all these years. Others not so.

All this blaming - women do this, men do this - is so sad and does not further cause of Jesus.

 

[GloryBe!]

Just because the woman may have FILED for the divorce, doesn't mean that she CAUSED the divorce. Divorce starts long before the courthouse. Maybe the 66% (which I don't know is fact or not ),comes from the overall intelligence of women who know if it's over, it's over....

Glory be!

 

[Conservativation]

Oh, so it's women's fault that some men are immature because we have persecuted men through marriage and divorce options. Okay. LOL

And I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about what abuse is when you've clearly made your mind up that nothing but a physical beating counts. Facts don't matter, I guess. Men like you scare me.

Sorry to scare you.

And I didnt suggest nothing but a beating counts. Read again please, but with your eyes open!

So sick and tired of this dynamic of responding to whats not been said.

Its no wonder no communication takes place.

Scare you.....whatever


Facts DO matter, thats the point. And someone saying "I was abused" MAY or may not be a fact. Best figure it out before unleashing the hounds on the dude.....facts....not anything less.

Im quite well versed in deep experience in all these matters. No one can say I dont know what its like. I know better than maybe everyone here what its like, so, I can say these things and feel good about them.

Im more selective with my sympathy, it comes with facts, those things that rarely get used anymore.

Non physical abuse comes with threats and restrictions....I already said that before but maybe the 2nd time it gets thru to you.

 

[Conservativation]

Just because the woman may have FILED for the divorce, doesn't mean that she CAUSED the divorce. Divorce starts long before the courthouse. Maybe the 66% (which I don't know is fact or not ),comes from the overall intelligence of women who know if it's over, it's over....

Glory be!

Did you read my op? I addressed this.

What it means is ENOUGH women are at fault.....a sufficient number....that it bears looking into. If you all could read things and leave out the absolutes, the all or nothing, the blame all women blame all men stuff that is not being said, you might understand the posts.

The case is layed out painstakingly, the analysis is deep and valid into all the easy objections like yours...."cause she filed doesn't mean she was at fault"...sheesh, everyone knows that, and folks doing research are smart enough to anticipate that and make that a part of the study.

The study by the way set out to prove the opposite, it was in other words biased to prove that men were "running away with the secretary" or however youd frame that cliche, and what it ended up proving is that there is a bilateral problem with divorce, and its not nearly as fraught with adultery and abuse as we, including me, thought. Psam63 thread on expectations offered a glimpse into the area that speaks to what the study may have revealed.

I fail, always, to understand why women are so defensive about sharing the responsibility for this, and agreeing to tackle matters that are more in theor realm than in mens, while men are busy tackling those things more prevalent on our side.

The comment above is telling, that "maybe those women were fed up and smart enough to leave"....it perfectly illustrates the perspective that women are good...thats a given, and when they divorce its nearly always the man screwing up. Sad that.

But the truth is most of those divorces dont even have major screw ups associated with them and are about expectations that may or may not have been too high. Its a benign and harmless idea to explore, yet inevitable it meets female blowback, has for the 3-4 years Ive been writing about it, to my amazement.

If anyone cares the info is easy to find, but that would mean folks need to open their mind and be willing to see things that go counter to what they "feel" or statements that start with "I believe"....which is the most common basis for disagreement, and its actually no basis at all.....facts prevail 100% of the time over I feel and I believe statements.

I would have been saying I feel and I believe exactly like the women here are, and maybe as many as half or more of Christian men would still not accept these facts, rather they too would accept I feel and I believe as proof text. I was that way too. A hand full of men posting here were that way too. Now we read one too many facts to ignore. Having ones worldview turned upside down is difficult, but one must be at least open to the idea that what they feel or believe can be 100% wrong