Carl Sagan's "THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD": The Spirit Of The Times

[freespirit2001]

I started a thread of the "Works of Carl Sagan" at an earlier time on this forum.

I still do not believe Carl Sagan was an atheist.

I want to discuss his works:

"THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD: SCIENCE AS A CANDLE IN THE DARK"

"COSMOS" the TV series...

"THE DRAGON'S OF EDEN" and his speculation of the origins of the intelligence of man and his work as an exobiologist, and all exobiologists and their belief in intelligent life on other planets---and all the funding and corporate cultures,and scientific communities that support these theories of intelligent life on other planets.....

Any feedback or personal insight of "THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD" or of the works of Carl Sagan his work with COPSI or SETI,
will be appreciated!

In thoughts to the politics of information power; our cultural spirit of the times of our global science technological advances and about teaching Intelligent Design in our public schools---should there be mandates against teaching Intelligent Design by the corporate medical engineering and technological institutions in our nation now?

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think Carl Sagan considered himself an "agnostic", but he seemed like an agnostic atheist to me.

What makes you think he wasn't an atheist?

 

[OdwinOddball]

At work at the moment, so don't have access to my copy, but I am fairly sure that Mr. Sagan actually said he was an atheist IN Demon Haunted World.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

I've read all of his books probably 3 times over. Sagan was an atheist.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Whether or not Sagan was an atheist, he certainly was no friend to the theist.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste all,

i think that Dr. Sagans view could be fairly well summed up by this piece:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Dragon In My Garage
[SIZE=+0]by
Carl Sagan[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=-1]"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity![/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Where's the dragon?" you ask.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floates in the air."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative-- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons--to say nothing about invisible ones--you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages--but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Such "evidence"--no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it--is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.[/SIZE]


metta,

~v

 

[Caphi]

I do love that piece so, Vajradhara. Far from being merely a) a marvelous Sagan work, and b) a fun essay to read for the first few times (and it is both), it also explains the Logical Principle of Parsimony in ways that I could never dream of doing myself.

 

[freespirit2001]

Namaste all,

i think that Dr. Sagans view could be fairly well summed up by this piece:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Dragon In My Garage[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[SIZE=+0]by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]
Carl Sagan[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+0]

I really appreciate your insight, vajradhara!
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=-1]

Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

[/SIZE]



Perhaps this quote may be a key to Carl Sagan's approach to faith and spirituality, which may not be so agnostic or atheist.


Watching his "Cosmos", and reading much of his work, I have felt he was appreciative of the global spirit and the spirituality of all faiths, through his use and appreciation of the scientific method.


Einstein, another scientist, I have felt, had unusual apperception of a higher sense of spirituality, I feel alludes to a spiritual consciousness and an appreciation for true spirituality by his words::


"The sense of the mysterious stands at the cradle of true art and true science."

"Subtle is the Lord; but malicious He is not."



Carl Sagan, I have always felt, also had a deep spiritual conviction, of higher levels of spirituality in his approach to energy, focus of his questions and intelligence, by his writing:

"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense."

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound sense of spirituality."


Carl's interests in our Bible book of Genesis,
in "THE DRAGONS OF EDEN"---he questions the cherubims of the TREE OF LIFE,
and the FLAMING SWORD of the CHERUBIM--- in his footnotes in his book.

What scientists even think of touching Genesis, in their courses of study now-a-days?


Carl Sagan used many bible quotes and aims his intellectual concerns---not at arrogance or power of his field on knowledge, but at the so-called christianity that used the inquisition and the power of blame and sedition against the minds and the inquisitive spirit of the times.

Carl Sagan, in COSMOS, I feel, focused on his own love of the mystery of spirituality of very early eastern faiths and beliefs: those that set their doctrines of belief
on "other-worldly" visitors.

Other-worldliness interested Carl Sagan, very much in his writings and work on the Cosmos series, of 13 shows. Many of these eastern cultures---such as the Upanisads of very early India history, had very sophisticated writings and belief systems of other-worldly beings as teachers, and bringing knowledge to man, also teaching man laws, such as in the Tao beliefs of the * Immortals...

This also reflected on the Christianity of an other-worldly Messiah of the Hebrew/Judea/Christian faith.

 

[DailyBlessings]

I love that book!

As for Sagan's beliefs, I've no doubt whatsoever that he considered himself an atheist. I have my own ideas about those who trust unerringly in the natural order of things, but Sagan himself certainly considered himself to be without belief.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

I believe his wife said that "he didn't want to believe, he wanted to know" when questioned about his spirituality after he died.

looking for a source

 

[TheBear]

Did someone say Carl Sagan?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Perhaps this quote may be a key to Carl Sagan's approach to faith and spirituality, which may not be so agnostic or atheist.


Watching his "Cosmos", and reading much of his work, I have felt he was appreciative of the global spirit and the spirituality of all faiths, through his use and appreciation of the scientific method.

Hold on! Being an atheist does not mean being anti-spirituality. An atheist can be appreciative of spirituality and be fully atheist.

See my CF webpage (link to the right).

 

[Sarcopt]

Perhaps this quote may be a key to Carl Sagan's approach to faith and spirituality, which may not be so agnostic or atheist.

The quote you're talking about essentially sums up the agnostic position. At least it is my position in being an agnostic.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Did someone say Carl Sagan?

Billions and billions of times.

 

[USincognito]

Carl Sagan was an emperial agnostic or a weak atheist from what I have read and seen. I wouldn't call him a Secular Humanist in terms of her publically voiced opinions and writings, but I would call him a humanist in terms of how he viewed the human condition. Take a look at my sig line if you have sigs turned off.

"Demon Haunted World" aside, I think Carl's legacy will not be skepticism nor his warnings about a nuclear winter, but his general efforts a bringing the arcana of hard core science fields like Astronomy in the late 20th Century to the masses.

For nearly a generation he was the Mr. Wizard for the over 18 age group.

 

[freespirit2001]

Did someone say Carl Sagan?

hahahahahaa-ha-ha!

and John Malcovich !!!!

"MAXWELL AND THE NERDS" ( James Clerk Maxwell of the math of electromagnestism, television and radio waves)
(chapter 23 of "The Demon-Haunted World":

Some of my favorite quotes are in the beginnings of each chapter:

"Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?"

RONALD REAGAN
campaign speech, 1980

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country and the surest basis of public happiness."

GEORGE WASHINGTON
address to Congress, January 8, 1790

His testament to Nerds:

"Nerds gone wild"---on curiosity based science

"A small highly competent, well-rewarded priesthood of professionals" in his Chapter 2, "Science and Hope" of "The Demon-Haunted World":


( sadly his chapter quotes have been very prophetic of the times---especially---of these Mega Storms such as Katrina on the Gulf Coast, in his Chapter 2 quote: of "Science and Hope" and the saying of the Inuit Indian to the Artic Greenlandic explorer:

"Two men came to a hole in the sky.
One asked the other to life him up....
But so beautiful was it in heaven that the man who looked in over the edge forgot everything, forgot his companion whom he had promised to help up and simply ran off into all the splendor of heaven."

from an Inuit prose poem, early twentieth century, told by INUGPASUGJUK
to KNUD RASMUSSEN, the Greenlandic artic explorer)

His Chapter of "The City of Grief"* really, in all reality, strikes me as sad now...

from "THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD"


(SETI funding was briefly resurrected under private contribution, in 1995, under the appropriate name Project phoenix--a singificant footnote of this chapter...In fact---all his footnotes are of cultural and scientific interest and significance...

The Phoenix, in Korean Cultural studies, represented a wind direction in their windrose totems---I believe the Phoenix, accordning to the early Koreans, represented the West Wind...
The Phoenix also is know for its legend for rising out of the ashes...

The rutilated quartz ball, ( in the thumbnail) goes for $990 a 3" ball....

 

[Loudmouth]

I believe his wife said that "he didn't want to believe, he wanted to know" when questioned about his spirituality after he died.

looking for a source

Actually, Carl Sagan stated it directly. His wife may have reiterated the same line after his death.

"I don't want to believe, I want to know"--Carl Sagan

It is referenced on many webpages.

 

[freespirit2001]

From the COSMOS TV series:
THE LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA

I remember some of his stories of science and slavery in one of his Cosmos shows,
of the slave woman, Hypaticus,
as a caretaker of the LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA

He also speaks of slaves in his chapter
"SCIENCE AND HOPE":



His quotes ABOUT being mired in error:

"WE WILL ALWAYS BE MIRED IN ERROR. THE MOST EACH GENERATION CAN HOPE FOR IS TO REDUCE THE ERROR BARS A LITTLE, AND ADD TO THE BODY OF DATA TO WHICH ERROR BARS APPLY. THE ERROR BAR IS A PERVASIVE....

VISIBLE SELF-ASSESSMENT OF THE RELIABILITY OF OUR KNOWLEDGE. YOU CAN OFTEN SEE ERROR BARS IN PUBLIC OPINION POLLS ( "AN UNCERTAINTY OF PLUS OR MINUS 3%," SAY). IMAGE A SOCIETY IN WHICH EVERY SPEECH IN THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, EVERY TELEVISION COMMERICIAL, EVERY SERMON HAD AN ACCOMPANYING ERROR BAR OR ITS EQUIVALENT."

"THINK HOW MANY RELIGIONS ATTEMPT TO VALIDATE THEMSELVES WITH PROPHECY. THINK OF HOW MANY PEOPLE RELY ON THESE PROPHECIES...HOWEVER VAGUE, HOWEVER UNFULFILLED, TO SUPPORT OR PROP UP THEIR BELIEFS. YET HAS THERE EVER BEEN A RELIGION WITH THE PROPHETIC ACCURACY AND RELIABILITY OF SCIENCE? THERE ISN'T A RELIGION ON THIS PLANET THAT DOESN'T LONG FOR A COMPARABLE ABILITY---
PRECISE, AND REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED
BEFORE COMMITTED SKEPTICS---
TO FORETELL FUTURE EVENTS.
NO OTHER HUMAN INSTITUTION COMES CLOSER."

....NOTICE HOW EINSTEIN'S PAPER BEGINS BY TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS. WHENEVER POSSIBLE, SCIENTISTS EXPERIMENT. WHICH EXPERIMENTS SUGGEST THEMSELVES OFTEN DEPENDS ON WHICH THEORIES CURRENTLY PREVAIL. SCIENTISTS ARE INTENT ON TESTING THOSE THEORIES TO THE BREAKING POINT. THEY DO NOT TRUST WHAT IS INTUITIVELY OBVIOUS. THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT WAS ONCE OBVIOUS. THAT HEAVY BODIES FALL FASTER THAN LIGHT ONES WAS ONCE OBVIOUS.
THAT BLOODSUCKING LEECHES CURE MOST DISEASES WAS ONCE OBVIOUS.
THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE NATURALLY AND BY DIVINE DECREE SLAVES WAS ONCE OBVIOUS...."

"...THAT THERE IS A PLACE AS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, AND THAT THE EARTH SITS IN A EXALTED SPOT WAS ONCE OBVIOUS. THAT THERE IS AN ABSOLUTE STANDARD OF REST WAS ONCE OBVIOUS. THE TRUTH MAY BE PUZZLING OR COUNTERINTUITIVE. IT MAY CONTRADICT DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS. EXPERIMENT IS HOW WE GET A HANDLE ON IT."

"DESPITE PLENTIFUL OPPORTUNITES FOR MISUSE, SCIENCE CAN BE THE GOLDEN ROAD OUT OF POVERTY AND BACKWARDNESS FOR EMERGING NATIONS. IT MAKES NATIONAL ECONOMIES AND THE GLOBAL CIVILIZATION RUN. MANY NATIONS UNDERSTAND THIS. iT IS WHY SO MANY GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES---STILL THE BEST IN THE WORLD--ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES. THE COROLLARY, ONE THAT THE UNITED STATES SOMETIMES FAILS TO GRASP, IS THAT ABANDONING SCIENCE IS THE ROAD BACK TO POVERTY AND BACKWARDNESS."


This is great news to me, and more and more refreshing...as time goes by...



He also loved the truth, and the spirit of the times...

Those are the same principles of my faith.

This is the MR.ROGERS of SCIENCE I grew up with in the liberal 70's....

PIC OF 'THE LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA' ON THE COSMOS TV SERIES

 

[dad]

Hold on! Being an atheist does not mean being anti-spirituality. An atheist can be appreciative of spirituality and be fully atheist.

See my CF webpage (link to the right).

Ha. I read this at your link

“Just as we can be good without God, we can have spirituality without spirits.”

Why call it SPIRITuality then? How about mental restiude, or material onlyality, or 'It'sallinyourheadism' !!!

Sounds like you just despiritize spirituality, and lay claim to being somehow spiritual. You can't have spirituality with no spirits. That is a bit like having a non material materialist, who has his spirit gold, and riches in ghost form only!

 

[freespirit2001]

Ha. I read this at your link

“Just as we can be good without God, we can have spirituality without spirits.”

Why call it SPIRITuality then? How about mental restiude, or material onlyality, or 'It'sallinyourheadism' !!!

Sounds like you just despiritize spirituality, and lay claim to being somehow spiritual. You can't have spirituality with no spirits. That is a bit like having a non material materialist, who has his spirit gold, and riches in ghost form only!

hEY! GLAD YOUR HERE!

Don't we get our english word GHOST, from the Old English word "Gast"---"soul,spirit"?

Jeffery McQuaid, wrote an article in the New York Times Magazine called "GHOST: THE HAUNTING OF OUR LANGUAGE"

He uses alot of phrases in it..like ghost feathers, ghoststock, ghost ship, town, planes, trains...ghost runner, get ghost, ghost riders....