Carl Braaten and problems with the ELCA...

[stumpjumper]

This letter is a year or so old but certainly still applicable:
http://versuspopulum.blogspot.com/2005/07/theology-in-elca.html

Anyone read it? I'm not looking to get into a big debate but we have talked about problems with the ELCA and the synod's within before (at my Parish an here)... Some of the main problems are the size and membership numbers within ELCA and that it is, by far, the largest Lutheran organization in America.

Braaten states that ELCA is simply going to turn into another liberal Protestant denomination if it does not make some changes. I tend to agree, on the whole, simply because of the size and issues it addresses in regards to Ecumenism etc... The homosexuality issues and their seemingly descent into antinomianism on certain issues as well...

Thoughts?

 

[LutherNut]

This letter is a year or so old but certainly still applicable:
http://versuspopulum.blogspot.com/2005/07/theology-in-elca.html

Anyone read it? I'm not looking to get into a big debate but we have talked about problems with the ELCA and the synod's within before (at my Parish an here)... Some of the main problems are the size and membership numbers within ELCA and that it is, by far, the largest Lutheran organization in America.

Braaten states that ELCA is simply going to turn into another liberal Protestant denomination if it does not make some changes. I tend to agree, on the whole, simply because of the size and issues it addresses in regards to Ecumenism etc... The homosexuality issues and their seemingly descent into antinomianism on certain issues as well...

Thoughts?

I'm not sure that all of the talk about "premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" was necessary.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

It seems ironic that the so called liberals in ELCA like Braaten have made overtures of leaving or wanting a change. It's not that they even want to revert back to confessionalism because they didn't start there but to just moderacy. Shows how far afield things have gone.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'm not sure that all of the talk about "premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" was necessary.

Funny ----but I don't think it was premature

 

[stumpjumper]

I'm not sure that all of the talk about "premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" was necessary.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

 

[stumpjumper]

Braaten's view of confessional Lutheranism is that the confessions are moderate, orthodox, and catholic.

Reuniting with those bodies with whom we are in agreement makes perfect sense from that perspective and I don't see how affirming the universal and orthodox view of the confessions means moderacy...

 

[stumpjumper]

I'm just looking to disuss here not really debate.

Face it... If you are a Lutheran living in America then ELCA Churches are, by far, the largest presence out there....

 

[LutherNut]

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

Then you haven't read that whole thing all the way to the bottom?

 

[stumpjumper]

Then you haven't read that whole thing all the way to the bottom?

OK. LOL...

I have only read Braaten's part and have actually read it elsewhere but this is what I could find to link...

 

[Protoevangel]

If I did not believe that the ELCA was not, as Braaten puts it, "just another liberal protestant denomination", but instead stayed true to it's Lutheran roots, I would not have left. I liked this letter it very much. Thank you for posting it, stumpjumper.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I didn't read all of the comments in the blog...just the first several. At first I found it incredible that the readers struggled with understanding what Braaten was driving at...that they thought it was some kind of "inside code".

But I got to thinking...if someone were to go to my husband's LCMS congregation and ask about the turmoil in the LCMS...99.9% wouldn't know anything about it. The local Lutheran church is their church, it is where they worship, it is where their friends worship, it is where they believe they receive the life giving Body and Blood of Christ, (and it is where their Baptist relatives and friends can commune as well--but I digress). And it is where they reluctantly contribute to the Synod...reluctantly because they don't see the Synod benefitting them at all...it is just a place where they send money. But they don't see the Synod hurting anything but their pocketbooks either.

So I think I better understand the confusion of the commenters now. God works with each of us where we are.

Now...regarding the article itself...I wonder...I have always been under the impression that when ELCAers leave because they see their church becoming more protestant, they are more likely to swim the Tiber. But...LCMSers leaving for the same reasons are more apt to go East. I have no numbers on this. I know there are plenty of LCMSers who have gone to Rome as well...it's just an impression I have.

Anyone else have same impression? Anyone have some theories as to why?

 

[stumpjumper]

Hmm. I know that my Parish has a good number of ex-Catholics. Many of them left during the sex-abuse scandals or just felt a disconnect between themselves and the local Archdiocese...

I doubt that if we ever left an ELCA Church though that we would move towards Catholicism... I was Baptised Catholic and my Father in-law was a life-long Catholic who attends our Church now...

I think I'll take the ELCA problems and all and hope that they start moving in the right direction...

 

[ByzantineDixie]

I think I'll take the ELCA problems and all and hope that they start moving in the right direction...

I agree that no one should embrace a new confession for the sole reason that they are running away from problems in their churches. Sometimes the problems allow someone to see the inadequacy of their confession and cause them to search for something they can believe in. "Runaway" conversions are risky and can set the individual up for much disappointment...and worse.

 

[DaRev]

I didn't read all of the comments in the blog...just the first several. At first I found it incredible that the readers struggled with understanding what Braaten was driving at...that they thought it was some kind of "inside code".

But I got to thinking...if someone were to go to my husband's LCMS congregation and ask about the turmoil in the LCMS...99.9% wouldn't know anything about it. The local Lutheran church is their church, it is where they worship, it is where their friends worship, it is where they believe they receive the life giving Body and Blood of Christ, (and it is where their Baptist relatives and friends can commune as well--but I digress). And it is where they reluctantly contribute to the Synod...reluctantly because they don't see the Synod benefitting them at all...it is just a place where they send money. But they don't see the Synod hurting anything but their pocketbooks either.

So I think I better understand the confusion of the commenters now. God works with each of us where we are.

Now...regarding the article itself...I wonder...I have always been under the impression that when ELCAers leave because they see their church becoming more protestant, they are more likely to swim the Tiber. But...LCMSers leaving for the same reasons are more apt to go East. I have no numbers on this. I know there are plenty of LCMSers who have gone to Rome as well...it's just an impression I have.

Anyone else have same impression? Anyone have some theories as to why?

There is a major difference, though, between the problems in the LCMS and the problems in the ELCA.

The problems in the LCMS, relating to the unbiblical practice of open communion, contemporary worship, women communion assistants, and other things is mainly within the congregations and not in the Synod. The Synod maintains its teachings of close communion, church and ministry, fellowship, and so on. In the LCMS, congregational membership is voluntary. They are members of synod because they agree (supposedly) with what the synod holds, teaches, and confesses. If a congregation wants to teach or practice something other than what the synod confesses, they should leave the synod instead of trying to drag it down with them. The synod, on the other hand, needs to be more stern with the abuses within member congregations. If a congregation teaches or practices against the confession of the synod, they should be removed from membership. The problem is that neither of these are happening.

With the ELCA, on the other hand, the problems of the unbiblical practice of open communion, ordination of women, homosexuality, abortion, fellowship with Reformed, etc. are not congregational issues, but are Church body issues. They originate from the top. It's not a matter of erring congregations, but an erring Church body.

 

[stumpjumper]

With the ELCA, on the other hand, the problems of the unbiblical practice of open communion, ordination of women, homosexuality, abortion, fellowship with Reformed, etc. are not congregational issues, but are Church body issues. They originate from the top. It's not a matter of erring congregations, but an erring Church body.

Hi DaRev

1.) How is open communion "unbiblical"? As monergists should not Lutherans recognize the Lord's Supper as an act of the ever present God? Should not communion be open to all Baptised Christians as the Bible expounds?

If a Zwinglian wanted to take communion in my Church (which believes in the Real Presence and we experience the Lord's Supper weekly too), would not someone who believes he is experiencing a ceremonial meal still experience the Real Presence?

2.) The ordination of women is a headache of a debate and I don't have time...

3.) How is ELCA's stance on homosexuality unbiblical? They do not ordain gay Pastors nor bless same sex marraiges... They simply believe that we should all "journey together in faith"

They also don't throw divorced members out of the Church either and ELCA recognizes that God loved us when we were yet sinners....

 

[DaRev]

Hi DaRev

1.) How is open communion "unbiblical"? As monergists should not Lutherans recognize the Lord's Supper as an act of the ever present God? Should not communion be open to all Baptised Christians as the Bible expounds?

If a Zwinglian wanted to take communion in my Church (which believes in the Real Presence and we experience the Lord's Supper weekly too), would not someone who believes he is experiencing a ceremonial meal still experience the Real Presence?

This issue has been beaten to death on this forum, but if you insist...

The Bible clearly teaches us that those who commune in an unworthy manner are committing a sin. How can anyone receive forgiveness of sins by committing a sin? What kind of church and what kind of Pastor would knwingly allow someone to committ a sin in their church at their altar? A VERY unloving practice.

The Bible also clearly teaches us that those who eat and drink without recognizing the Body of Christ (and clearly NOT the ecclestical body but the body being eaten in the supper) is bringing judgement upon himself. What kind of church and what kind of pastor would knowingly allow someone to commune who does not recognize or believe in the Real prersence of Christ's body in the supper and thus bring God's wrath and judgement upon himself? Again, a VERY unloving practice.

The Zwinglian would indeed receive the very body and blood of Christ, but not to his benefit but rather to his judgement. No loving and caring church would knowingly allow someone to do such harm to themselves.

2.) The ordination of women is a headache of a debate and I don't have time...

It really deson't need to be. For any church that follows God's word it's not an issue at all.

3.) How is ELCA's stance on homosexuality unbiblical? They do not ordain gay Pastors nor bless same sex marraiges... They simply believe that we should all "journey together in faith"

The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is inherently sinful. The ELCA may not officially ordain gay or lesbian clergy (although there are openly gay and lesbian clergy in the ELCA) it certainly embraces the lifestyle. It is an abomination to God, it is adultery, and those so involved need to be ministered to in a loving way to show them their sin and lead them to repentance so that they can resume a God-pleasing life.

They also don't throw divorced members out of the Church either and ELCA recognizes that God loved us when we were yet sinners....

The LCMS does not throw out divorced members either. If they did, I wouldn't be here. There are Biblical grounds for divorce. If someone is living in a state of unrepentant sin, that's a different issue altogether.

 

[stumpjumper]

DaRev

Open communion has not been beaten to death as far as I know as I can't even remember the last thread that I have seen about it...

Regardless, is there any scriptural passage that says that a Baptised Christian who received the Lord's Supper and feels it is a ceremonial rather than actual presence is sinning against the Lord?

ELCA has clearly stated that homosexuality is sinful as is divorce except in regards to unfaithfullness...

 

[DaRev]

Regardless, is there any scriptural passage that says that a Baptised Christian who received the Lord's Supper and feels it is a ceremonial rather than actual presence is sinning against the Lord?

1 Corinthians 11:27-29, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself."

 

[stumpjumper]

1 Corinthians 11:27-29, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself."

Well even my study Bible states that this passage is more of a reference to those who take the Lord's Supper "without having grasped and internalized the meaning of Jesus' death for them" (theology of the cross IMO)... It also says that in 11:28 that "examine himself" should be read as "examine and found true" and it was more of a mention to the unity between Jesus Christ and his followers...

Just not seeing it there, and I have looked...

Regardless, I very much believe in the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at Eucharist and I weekly invite my neighbors to partake at our Church since we have an open table...

 

[LutherNut]

Well even my study Bible states that this passage is more of a reference to those who take the Lord's Supper "without having grasped and internalized the meaning of Jesus' death for them" (theology of the cross IMO)... It also says that in 11:28 that "examine himself" should be read as "examine and found true" and it was more of a mention to the unity between Jesus Christ and his followers...

I'm curious... what Study Bible are you reading?

Just not seeing it there, and I have looked...

Look harder.

Regardless, I very much believe in the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at Eucharist and I weekly invite my neighbors to partake at our Church since we have an open table...

Do your neighbors believe in the Real Presence of Christ's true body and blood? Otherwise they are sinning.