Capitalism - DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[jgarden]

that may very well be true, but at least for the first 120 years of this nation's history, the federal government pretty much left us the hell alone to carry out our business/commerce without interference. the freedom to be left alone and unmolested by your government is one of the greatest of liberties. now it seems like big brother is just around every corner watching your every move.

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The Distribution of Wealth and Income in Industrializing America
Economic Growth and Stratification of Wealth

Year - National Wealth Owned By Top l0 Percent
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1800 - 45 percent
1820 - 50 percent
1840 - 55 percent
1860 - 60 percent

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/us14.cfm

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To be left,"...... the hell alone to carry out our business/commerce without interference. The freedom to be left alone and unmolested ....." is an illusion.

The federal government was eventually forced to intervene when the wealth of the nation was concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

Did the Founding Fathers envision a nation where 10% of the population controlled 60%+ of the nation's wealth?

Wealth buys political power and influence.

 

[GodGunsAndGlory]

Yeah, it was at Wal-Mart and he was 16.

But I'd think that even a job like that, you should be given SOME kind of chance to have the basic necessities, not simply run the person over to the ground.

I could easily now get a job that pays $15+ now... your friend has no skills.

 

[Wyzaard]

It cancels out the natural selection of an aristocracy who normally arise from a superior ability which is acceded to due to its success and the influence they possess.

Hmmm... I'm unsure of what this 'superior ability' thing means; where does it come from, what does it do, why should we care about it, what activates it and/or makes it meaningful in what contexts, how would we detect it, what does it being 'natural' mean, etc.

Despite resentment on the part of some, the natural aristocrat's own success signals his capacity and the strength he possesses allows him to broadly influence people to better patterns.

One such way is by creating institutions and other systems that would structure such influence for their benefit... like STATES.

 

[Wyzaard]

Wealth buys political power and influence.

And the ability to stack the beck in your favor... which eliminates any sort of basic groundwork for a meritocracy.

 

[GodGunsAndGlory]

Wealth buys political power and influence.

No thanks to McCain-Feingold.

 

[Wyzaard]

No thanks to McCain-Feingold.

Wealth has bought political influence in this country since its founding... McCain-Feingold was a poor attempt to counter it, though at least they tried.

 

[Wyzaard]

I'm not promoting socialism. I don't agree with socialism. The utopian idea of everyone just not working and getting a monthly check from the government, and/or providing free everything (including things people might not need) for a super-high tax rate doesn't make sense to me, because we don't know where it will end.

Hmmm... I'm not sure what sort of straw-man socialism you've been hearing about. In most all cases where there is some form of social safety net, those who can work and have access to work do work; even if all their needs are met, what they accomplish on top of that satisfies other goals for themselves or their family's further improvement. Most forms of basic-needs assistance would come in the forms of productive supports like health and day care, job training, etc; a healthier, higher-skilled workforce with time to invest has more incentive to work better. As for the tax rate, such responsibilities would focus on those who can and should pay more: those at the top who make the most from a socio-economic system that requires constant human and material upkeep.

Of course, these are just reformist measures... real progress will have to come with a democratization of all parts of our society.

 

[Harpuia]

Hmmm... I'm not sure what sort of straw-man socialism you've been hearing about. In most all cases where there is some form of social safety net, those who can work and have access to work do work; even if all their needs are met, what they accomplish on top of that satisfies other goals for themselves or their family's further improvement. Most forms of basic-needs assistance would come in the forms of productive supports like health and day care, job training, etc; a healthier, higher-skilled workforce with time to invest has more incentive to work better. As for the tax rate, such responsibilities would focus on those who can and should pay more: those at the top who make the most from a socio-economic system that requires constant human and material upkeep.

Of course, these are just reformist measures... real progress will have to come with a democratization of all parts of our society.

The concept of socialism I heard on one gaming board (forgot which) was that basically, if you work you get money, but every citizen is provided the basic essentials and if you had worked for x amount of months, a lifetime unemployment/welfare check to help you until you get another job.

So the basic plan of many of those guys (under a socialist country) were to work those x amount of months, apply for unemployment/welfare/whatever you call it, and then just live off of it for as long as you can.

As you can see, I seem to know a lot of people that really REALLY hate work.

 

[Wyzaard]

The concept of socialism I heard on one gaming board (forgot which) was that basically, if you work you get money, but every citizen is provided the basic essentials and if you had worked for x amount of months, a lifetime unemployment/welfare check to help you until you get another job.

So the basic plan of many of those guys (under a socialist country) were to work those x amount of months, apply for unemployment/welfare/whatever you call it, and then just live off of it for as long as you can.

As you can see, I seem to know a lot of people that really REALLY hate work.

Sounds like some of the issues they have had with the dole in Britain... where were they from?