Capital punishment...

[GreenMunchkin]

What would be the purpose of owning something that you don't intend to use?

Sometimes a show of strength is enough, isn't it?

Oh additionally yes He did tell Peter to put it down. I agree there are times that we are not to resist. In matters of faith for example, or in trying to prevent the Will of God, (which is what Peter was unknowingly doing as it was God's will that Christ would be given over as a Sacrifice)

But He also pulled Simon the Zealot away from the political, physical warring. Nowhere in scriptures do we have Jesus exhorting any of His disciples to commit an act of violence or murder against anyone. With Mary Magdalene, He put an end to a physical punitive sentence - one there would be no coming back from - and commanded her to go and sin no more. He gave her the chance to redeem herself and start a new life with Him.

I don't think Jesus was a pacifist (in terms of its post-Vietnam War meaning) because He was "aggressive" when needs be, but the issue is one of state-sanctioned murder, and the chance of being saved.

 

[No Swansong]

Sometimes a show of strength is enough, isn't it?

But He also pulled Simon the Zealot away from the political, physical warring. Nowhere in scriptures do we have Jesus exhorting any of His disciples to commit an act of violence or murder against anyone. With Mary Magdalene, He put an end to a physical punitive sentence - one there would be no coming back from - and commanded her to go and sin no more. He gave her the chance to redeem herself and start a new life with Him.

I don't think Jesus was a pacifist (in terms of its post-Vietnam War meaning) because He was "aggressive" when needs be, but the issue is one of state-sanctioned murder, and the chance of being saved.

The many studies I have read indicates that there is no correlation between length of time in prison or before execution and the likelihood of an individual having a religious conversion.

Additionally many would argue that Jesus was indeed "violent" in the Temple.

As for State-sanctioned murder as you call it. The only on point references in Scripture supports capital punishment.

But I would ask you the same questions I asked before should I not have defended the individuals I posted about earlier? Certainly a loss of life was possible in each ocurrence.

 

[No Swansong]

Oh I wanted to add that a show of strength is worthless without the willingness to back it up.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

The many studies I have read indicates that there is no correlation between length of time in prison or before execution and the likelihood of an individual having a religious conversion.

Perhaps. But (and, truly, without being glib) a person's chances of being saved go down if they're dead...

Additionally many would argue that Jesus was indeed "violent" in the Temple.

Yah, I used "aggressive". I'm not sure violent is the right word, but this is just semantics, and we're on the same page with that. However, aggression/violence aren't the same as execution.

As for State-sanctioned murder as you call it. The only on point references in Scripture supports capital punishment.

Hmm. But not in the way its carried out, where it's so open to errors in judgement.

And, again, I really think Jesus' actions supercede OT verses that capital punishment is allowed. That's the thing: the Bible doesn't "support" it, but OT verses allow it. That doesn't mean it's the option we have to use.

There are also places where God extended grace to people who, by rights, should have been executed. Look at Cain, for example.

But I would ask you the same questions I asked before should I not have defended the individuals I posted about earlier? Certainly a loss of life was possible in each ocurrence.

I'm not sure which individuals you mean? Which post number, please? Thank you

 

[No Swansong]

Perhaps. But (and, truly, without being glib) a person's chances of being saved go down if they're dead...

I am only pointing out that there doesn't seem to make a difference.

Yah, I used "aggressive". I'm not sure violent is the right word, but this is just semantics, and we're on the same page with that. However, aggression/violence aren't the same as execution.

Agreed

Hmm. But not in the way its carried out, where it's so open to errors in judgement.

I admit that there are problems with the way the punishment is meted out in the U.S. and for that reason I think that it is unjust as a social practice in the U.S. That however is not the same as saying that should that injustice not exist that Capital Punishment would not be a morally acceptable means of justice.

And, again, I really think Jesus' actions supercede OT verses that capital punishment is allowed. That's the thing: the Bible doesn't "support" it, but OT verses allow it. That doesn't mean it's the option we have to use.

But I don't see that Jesus actions changed capital punishment. I have to disagree that the Old Testament just allowed for capital punishment. It actually called for it and some would argue demanded it.

There are also places where God extended grace to people who, by rights, should have been executed. Look at Cain, for example.

Indeed God is gracious upon whom He chooses. Cain by the way lived before the Law was given.

I'm not sure which individuals you mean? Which post number, please? Thank you

Second paragraph post number 173.

Why is most of my response Green?

 

[MrJim]

Why is most of my response Green?

Yer turnin' into a munchkin ..it's an osmosis thing...

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I'm strong on justice, but I still can't suppoort the DP.

Since I'm jumping in late here...can everybody post again for me? Thanks.

 

[Albion]

I'm strong on justice, but I still can't suppoort the DP.

Would I be correct in saying that you have no opposition in theory to executing Charles Manson, let's say? But that it is only the practical side of the matter that causes you not to want to apply it--the uneven handling of cases, the inability to rectify a mistaken conviction afterwards, the lesser ability of the poor to get the defense attorneys that rich people can afford, and so on?

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Would I be correct in saying that you have no opposition in theory to executing Charles Manson, let's say? But that it is only the practical side of the matter that causes you not to want to apply it--the uneven handling of cases, the inability to rectify a mistaken conviction afterwards, the lesser ability of the poor to get the defense attorneys that rich people can afford, and so on?

Hmm. Tempting!! But still, I would support locking a monster like him up for life...but not executing.

Is that to say if I saw him on the street I wouldn't pop a cap in him? Not hardly.

That's why I don't carry a gun...

 

[Albion]

Hmm. Tempting!! But still, I would support locking a monster like him up for life...but not executing.

Is that to say if I saw him on the street I wouldn't pop a cap in him? Not hardly.

That's why I don't carry a gun...

Well, it was a guess on my part. Many people are against Capital Punishment not because of a reluctance to take a life but because they consider the penalty to be unfairly applied by the courts.

 

[Hentenza]

Well, it was a guess on my part. Many people are against Capital Punishment not because of a reluctance to take a life but because they consider the penalty to be unfairly applied by the courts.

Yes, that is my objection, however, I do carry a gun, though.

 

[Iosias]

Westminster Confession

Chapter 19
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

[7] (EXO 21-22) GEN 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 1PE 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 1CO 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Well, it was a guess on my part. Many people are against Capital Punishment not because of a reluctance to take a life but because they consider the penalty to be unfairly applied by the courts.

For me, it's both.
If I had no problem with the penalty itself, I still couldn't support it given the state of the US justice system.